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 That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion

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blackstar
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:22 pm

So you believe every other religious doctrine on the planet is correct as well then because that's what you just said.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:27 pm

[Sarcasm] NO. ONLY THE BIBLE IS RIGHT DUH CHRISTIANITY IS PWNZOR EVERYTHING ELSE IS WRONG[/Sarcasm]

I respect other religions us Christians arent all elitists like some think. I just lack respect for those who are so convinced that there is no God
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:27 pm

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents...

I will remain agnostic. But, until their is sufficient proof of a god or higher being, then consider me an Atheist.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:27 pm

There are tons of religious texts. In fact, the torah, the bible, and the qu'ran all have the old testaments stories in their religious scripture. Those were proven stories, and they all have values that each religion believes. In fact, if you didn't know, Allah and Jehovah are the same deity, it's all the matter of the "savior" that changes your religion, along with various other minor customs.

So in fact, yes PART of the bible is proof, but the new testament is all Jesus and what he told us. That part is only based on belief.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:30 pm

Master Cthulhu wrote:
I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents...

I will remain agnostic. But, until their is sufficient proof of a god or higher being, then consider me an Atheist.

Theres no proof that God doesnt exist either...
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 pm

Yeah that's the age old argument really. That's the point where it comes down to belief.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 pm

MarshallEMG wrote:
[Sarcasm] NO. ONLY THE BIBLE IS RIGHT DUH CHRISTIANITY IS PWNZOR EVERYTHING ELSE IS WRONG[/Sarcasm]

I respect other religions us Christians arent all elitists like some think. I just lack respect for those who are so convinced that there is no God

But in it's own way christianity does say that. I mean they did try to wipe out the pagan's. So you believe the pagans are right, the hindu's are right, everyone is right. Which isn't according to the bible which says only those who accept Jesus will saved I do believe.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:37 pm

blackstar wrote:
MarshallEMG wrote:
[Sarcasm] NO. ONLY THE BIBLE IS RIGHT DUH CHRISTIANITY IS PWNZOR EVERYTHING ELSE IS WRONG[/Sarcasm]

I respect other religions us Christians arent all elitists like some think. I just lack respect for those who are so convinced that there is no God

But in it's own way christianity does say that. I mean they did try to wipe out the pagan's. So you believe the pagans are right, the hindu's are right, everyone is right. Which isn't according to the bible which says only those who accept Jesus will saved I do believe.

That was a long time ago. You cant blame us today for what happened. Thats like going to germany and yelling at a kid for the Holocaust
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:37 pm

Christians attempted to wipe out othr religions, but they morphed christianity to be something it wasn't. I think it's wrong for the pagan's to hate christians for that, it was people using christianity as an excuse for idiocy

If you read the bible, it actualy says to love your enemy and to not fight them. I believe that there are times when we need war, but the bible tells us to live and let live
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:39 pm

I actually agree with those statements good job. But you actually sidestepped what I was making the main comment on which I suppose is partially my fault.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:40 pm

Axeforhire wrote:
There are tons of religious texts. In fact, the torah, the bible, and the qu'ran all have the old testaments stories in their religious scripture. Those were proven stories, and they all have values that each religion believes. In fact, if you didn't know, Allah and Jehovah are the same deity, it's all the matter of the "savior" that changes your religion, along with various other minor customs.

So in fact, yes PART of the bible is proof, but the new testament is all Jesus and what he told us. That part is only based on belief.

axeforhire wrote:
Christians attempted to wipe out othr religions, but they morphed christianity to be something it wasn't. I think it's wrong for the pagan's to hate christians for that, it was people using christianity as an excuse for idiocy

If you read the bible, it actualy says to love your enemy and to not fight them. I believe that there are times when we need war, but the bible tells us to live and let live

Well, the reason they are similar is because they are from around the exact same area, and over half of the bible is the exact same thing as the Torah.

The Bible lets us look back at the origins of religion. Man asked the ultimate questions.

"What am I? Where am I? How am I here? Why am I here?"

The questions, of course, remain unanswered. We can, however, take a look at the Bible and see the things that our ancestors believed in place of the unknown, to explain the unknown.

Lets take a further look back at traditional Norse or Greek mythology. They explained what they didn't know through religion.

It eventually grew more advanced, and the silly things were taken out of it. Yeah, there was still an almighty being that created us, and two different creation stories, but at least it didn't include gods living inside of a mountain. Of course our ancestors believed the stories as told in the bible.

Modern religion calls these stories metaphorical explanations. This is yet another advancement in religion. The one god is still there, yes, and he has come down to Earth in the form of Jesus Christ. Catholics believe that God's love is everywhere, including on other planets in which there might be intelligent life (a belief that wouldn't have existed -or been very widespread if in existance- during the year "0").

Science does owe a lot to religion. Many of the ancient scientists were very religious, though some not. The yearly calender, for example, or the names of our planets.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:41 pm

Master Cthulhu wrote:
Axeforhire wrote:
There are tons of religious texts. In fact, the torah, the bible, and the qu'ran all have the old testaments stories in their religious scripture. Those were proven stories, and they all have values that each religion believes. In fact, if you didn't know, Allah and Jehovah are the same deity, it's all the matter of the "savior" that changes your religion, along with various other minor customs.

So in fact, yes PART of the bible is proof, but the new testament is all Jesus and what he told us. That part is only based on belief.

axeforhire wrote:
Christians attempted to wipe out othr religions, but they morphed christianity to be something it wasn't. I think it's wrong for the pagan's to hate christians for that, it was people using christianity as an excuse for idiocy

If you read the bible, it actualy says to love your enemy and to not fight them. I believe that there are times when we need war, but the bible tells us to live and let live

Well, the reason they are similar is because they are from around the exact same area, and over half of the bible is the exact same thing as the Torah.

The Bible lets us look back at the origins of religion. Man asked the ultimate questions.

"What am I? Where am I? How am I here? Why am I here?"

The questions, of course, remain unanswered. We can, however, take a look at the Bible and see the things that our ancestors believed in place of the unknown, to explain the unknown.

Lets take a further look back at traditional Norse or Greek mythology. They explained what they didn't know through religion.

It eventually grew more advanced, and the silly things were taken out of it. Yeah, there was still an almighty being that created us, and two different creation stories, but at least it didn't include gods living inside of a mountain. Of course our ancestors believed the stories as told in the bible.

Modern religion calls these stories metaphorical explanations. This is yet another advancement in religion. The one god is still there, yes, and he has come down to Earth in the form of Jesus Christ. Catholics believe that God's love is everywhere, including on other planets in which there might be intelligent life (a belief that wouldn't have existed -or been very widespread if in existance- during the year "0").

Science does owe a lot to religion. Many of the ancient scientists were very religious, though some not. The yearly calender, for example, or the names of our planets.

That was good + rep
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:43 pm

I say we call this before it gets heated again but that's just me.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:44 pm

blackstar wrote:
I actually agree with those statements good job. But you actually sidestepped what I was making the main comment on which I suppose is partially my fault.

sorry I saw that and I hate to post something lol

I believe that only people who accept jesus will be saved, but that's another grey area in religion for me. I am confused as to why God would punish ignorant people who may not have known about christianity, or people who did not have the opportunity to learn. I also have a hard time believing that God would punish good people just because they were skeptical of religion. I dunno
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:45 pm

blackstar wrote:
I say we call this before it gets heated again but that's just me.

I think everyone is actually calm and understanding right now. I think we all realize we are debating like friends, not arguing like enemies
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:47 pm

My approach to religion is that of a relationship between science and philosophy. Science is a pool of facts which can be used in a philosophical context of examining religion. My favorite theological arguments in terms of arguing for the existence of a deity are the fine tuning and cosmological arguments. My favorite arguments in favor of belief are my take on Pascal's Wager and historical evidence for Jesus Christ's resurrection.

I'm a nonreligious agnostic though, but I argue all sides against myself.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:49 pm

I shouldn't say *my* take on Pascal's Wager...I'm sure he had the same things in mind being a mathematician and all but I suppose what I meant to say was that I see it and argue it differently than a lot of people seem to do now days.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:49 pm

I say we can keep this thread going as long as nobody has any direct insults against one's religion, and we keep the "fighting" to a minimum.

We can have disagreements, sure, but at least make sure you have some logic behind what you say.

Don't have a flame war.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:51 pm

Yeah I love a good philisophical and morals discussion.

I always think science is a fantastic explanation of how
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:53 pm

Science is a system of trial and error guided by principles of logic to create models and theories to explain how the universe works. Personally I value logic above science, science above intuition, intuition above senses, senses above feelings, and feelings above faith. That is, in the context of knowledge. When it comes to being in a fox hole or something faith is all you have left a lot of times.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:59 pm

Science in part helps me keep my religion. Theres just some things that i see where I believe that is not possible without God
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:00 pm

Yeah I have the same approach except I see the details differently.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:04 pm

Just remember:

We have explored very, very little of the outside world. Nobody knows what is out there. Nobody (and I hate to say this) in our lifetime will likely know the most extremes of the outer universe.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:06 pm

In 1000 years we still wont know everything, in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:12 pm

It's a sad thought...

Hopefully after I die, I'll turn into a ghost so I can find out all the scientific advancements made after I die, and watch the end of the world in action.

And, hell, if there is a religious apocalypse*, that too.

*I'm using the word in the sense that it was originally meant to be used, as an unraveling of secrets, not the end of the world.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:17 pm

I think it can be logically proven that it is impossible to know everything, should knowing whether one knows everything or not count as something which should be known in order for one to know everything.
Can you prove that there isn't something out there you don't know about?
No, cannot prove a negative.
So then it could be that you don't know everything.
Simple enough.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:24 pm

Not know everything, I just want to see what will happen to the human race and Earth.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:27 pm

Oh yeah of course. I was commenting on something separate. Those questions are interesting though. I'm pretty sure in about 2 billion years or so the earth will be kind of like Venus. I'm sure life will survive but not sure if any animal life will survive...but I wouldn't be surprised given what we know about current life on earth.

Most likely Earth is just going to get melted by the expanding sun (whenever that comes about, around 5 billion years from now). I'd love to see it...imagine looking out and seeing the sun extending infinitely in every direction like an infinite plane separating the universe in two right in front of you. One hot and bright mother f***ing plane though. I heard on an astronomy lecture that they don't think the sun will actually "absorb" the earth because it will lose a lot of mass due to solar winds when it expands, but it will melt us or worse for sure. Life won't survive that. And I say good riddance.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:30 pm

VacuousReality wrote:
Oh yeah of course. I was commenting on something separate. Those questions are interesting though. I'm pretty sure in about 2 billion years or so the earth will be kind of like Venus. I'm sure life will survive but not sure if any animal life will survive...but I wouldn't be surprised given what we know about current life on earth.

Most likely Earth is just going to get melted by the expanding sun (whenever that comes about, around 5 billion years from now). I'd love to see it...imagine looking out and seeing the sun extending infinitely in every direction like an infinite plane separating the universe in two right in front of you. One hot and bright mother f***ing plane though. I heard on an astronomy lecture that they don't think the sun will actually "absorb" the earth because it will lose a lot of mass due to solar winds when it expands, but it will melt us or worse for sure. Life won't survive that.

True, but in 2 billion years we will most likely have the technology to colonize other planets if earth becomes endangered
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:31 pm

damn scary stuff,
yeah, i wish im around to see what happens. that would be so cool

i wish life was like a harry potter book.

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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:31 pm

The most likely options are that we will either mass evacuate to Mars, immigrate there over time, find another place to live other than Mars, or just incinerate on Earth.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:33 pm

I would immigrate over time to other earth like planets, that way there is already society established there if earth were endangered.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:35 pm

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised. We'd have to go for mars. I'm sure some "people" (or descendants of us) will survive on a venus-like earth like that by creating a controlled climate environment with a self-sustaining agriculture or something, but most people would end up dying I'd think. Also as far going to mars I don't think many people would be able to go. Energy is scarce and therefore there will be a price on lives.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:40 pm

Well, we'll have many scientific advancements. Since the sun will be hotter, maybe we will have more machines that run on heat, which is natural energy?
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:43 pm

I think I heard the sun will be about 10%-20% more luminous over the next 1-2 billion years, so that is true.

Going to Oceanography now.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:01 pm

Science dammit

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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:40 pm

SCIENCE DAMN YOU!
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:24 pm

See, I think science does more to disprove the existence of a God, rather than confirm that there could be one. Between evolution and big bang theory, given 20-30 years, we'll be pretty close to having a compete atheistic theory for the creation of the universe. Right now, we are pretty close, but as pointed out, there are a few holes. It's just not as accepted as it should be, partly because going from a view of a sudden, dramatic creation of the universe, to a slow drawn out process over billions of years is kind of hard to grasp for most people.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:43 pm

while i partially agree with that statement, i think your time frame is completely off.
try 150 years. assuming we correctly prove with science that there is no higher authority, there will still be hundreds upon millions of people that will still disbelieve it and refuse to pas it on to their children. at least 3 generations from when we figure whats what till its "accepted"

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No fucking worries I guess you cunts, just wanted to bloody well plant the careful seed in your maggot infested brains.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:09 pm

I think you'd be surprised how close they are. I think 150 years is a lot longer than it'll actually take. Maybe 50 or so.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:11 pm

i wish

but that is all predicated upon finding evidence substantial enough to even quell the minds of the stubborn
im with you, but im a realist, and i want to see it done in 50, but id bet on vegas odds that it isnt in our lifetime

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Blink 182?
Byd, this is how it starts, you know. One day it's "I like Blink 182", the next it's "I think I like men".
Master Cthulhu wrote:
Where Bathory was an iron broadsword, this band is a big plastic one with "viking!" written on it in sparkly purple magic marker.
sarainadream wrote:
No fucking worries I guess you cunts, just wanted to bloody well plant the careful seed in your maggot infested brains.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:25 pm

Well yea, having it universally accepted is another story altogether. Evolution isn't even universally accepted, it's almost as if some people make a concerted effort to deny the obvious. It took ages for us to realize the earth was round, and that the planets revolved around the sun and not the other way around. But actually having a complete explanation for an atheistic origin of the universe is not far in the future.


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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:27 pm

It still wouldn't change people's minds about religion. As long as the "ultimate" questions remain unanswered, there will be religion. I don't think they will be answered through science any time soon.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:29 pm

Well Christianity is pretty good at evading the fact that science is quickly disproving their religion. The Catholic Church has already said that evolution, even though it completely debunked creationism, can actually coincide with a God concept. So really, they try to pick and choose what they believe in, even though most believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I find it rather amusing.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:38 pm

I disagree with that completely. How does it completely disprove anything? So creatures have evolved. But total evolution hasn't been proven. Only microevolution. And that is a perfect explanation of how man came to be
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:50 pm

Religions are often changing their beliefs to fit with modern science.

For example, the Christian church believed that God created man in 7 days. The modern church is saying that it's just a metaphor, and that God created microorganisms and that we are still in the evolution process. The translation was "7" days but it could mean a lot more.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:55 pm

The way I see it as a christian is

God made man i seven days. How long is a day for god though? Isn't god's time infinate since God lives where there is no time? So for me God made it in seven of his days, which of course could be billions of years if it's a metaphor.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:56 pm

I never understood that really because it specified day and night for each day, but I'm sure there could be some kind of an explanation. I suppose it's just the people who translated it added in the day and night thing or...I don't know, no idea. To be honest I usually try to avoid discussions about the bible when it comes to religious debate. I find it too interpretable. I mean...unless they are using the bible as evidence or something, like JC.
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:01 pm

The Bible is basically all interpretation. The mean the story of creation in the Bible is just a story. So it should not be taken literaly, in my opinion. Even if it's literal, I think it is a mistake to take everything the Bible says at face value. Hell, especially the book of Revelation. That is basically a dream, as I've heard, and it is open completely to interpretation because of it's extensive use of metaphors
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PostSubject: Re: That Metal Show & Religion/Morals Discussion   Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:04 pm

The bible, in modern religion, is all metaphors, except some of the New Testament, of course.

Woah, big question popped into my head!

What if Jesus was a metaphor?

Was the bible only meant to control us?

Find out, when I get back from the airport Very Happy

Until then, discuss.
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