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D-Lor
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 8:34 pm

ExtremeOverload wrote:
D-Lor wrote:
ExtremeOverload wrote:
Tiers are for queers.

Only those who don't understand what tiers are say that.
I know what tiers are, therefore, I find them invalid. A talented player playing as a low tier character can easily beat a novice playing a high tier guy. It's like that for all competitive games. And tiers are also used for showing what character is more used in tournaments. Meta Knight being higher up is mostly because of high damage out put thanks to the constant mashing of B, as well as he is a popular character to use in Brawl.

What you described is not what a tier list is. Tier lists assume that both players are at an equal and high level of skill. The bottom line is that some characters are better than others. You can't deny this. The only way for each character to be balanced is if they were all exactly the same.

Palpi and LOR explained it.

Just to clarify, tiers are not based solely on tournament results (there is a list for that if you would like to see it), as that would be more influenced by character popularity. Tiers are based on a combination of match ups, character properties (priority, range, etc, etc), and tournament results. We know the difference between when a character is doing well because talented players are using him and when it's just a good character.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 8:42 pm

LOR wrote:
tiers are actually supposed to be based off how a match up would go with two equally skilled players. if 2 equally matched players used a low tier and a high tier, the high tier player would win. I actually thought the way you do until i started getting into it more by playing with d-lor and palpi of lor. it makes a huge difference. low tier characters have many more vulnerablities. also if you are palying a low tier character against a character like falco or fox or marth, youll notice how you will not even be able to touch them because the combos, hit box (in marth's case) and speed of those characters are rape. this is only if you are playing "good" players. playing casually with your freinds wont make a difference. in casual play, i will agree with you that tiers dont make a difference because no one knows the advanced stuff.
Though I do agree with some of your statements, I still have to disagree with thee. Back when I used to watch Melee tournament vids, almost ever video i saw that had a fox/falco player that constantly set up for a chain grab maneuver only to be followed by a down smash for the kill. other player would spawn again, and the fox/falco would repeat. I don't believe that should justify them to be top tier. Like, if I remember correctly, I think Dedede was nominated for top tier at one point for the waddle dee toss, mulit jump and his almost perfect chain grab. So I dont think that certain characters should be top tier just cuz they can do a few things better than the others. This also applies for Pokemon.

breakyoudown wrote:
Lol Kyle's first informative response
My serious business will only be found in the Video Game Discussions.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 8:50 pm

I can talk brawl too.

Metaknight is the best character in brawl, and other than maybe 1 month, he has ALWAYS been the best character in brawl. "Why? I beat my brother using metaknight, as captain falcon...ALL THE TIME" Mr. Imaginary man is infact a nobody (literally) in the smash community and knows little, to nothing about the game. Metaknight has something called transcendental priority (i think thats what it called) this means his move will always beat your move if performed at the same time, or it will clank (both moves stop). Only a handfull of moves beat Metaknights arsenal. All sword attacks (marth, ike, metaknight) have this priority, though for ike, his shitty recovery and slow moves make him on the brink of low tier.

Dedede has the best grab range in all of brawl, if falcon had his grab range, he would be a lot better, but not as good as dedede would because dedede has the chain grab. So think of this, dedede has a stage chain grab, and he is the easy character to get off grabs with. How does that make him not better than mid and low tier? Ganon has d3's power, but he is slow, punishable and has no priority, obvious worse character. If I actually wanted to, I could go through every character and explain why each one is worse or better than the other, or better yet explain why they lose to metaknight, but honestly, read up on the process of tiers to truly understand it.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 8:50 pm

ExtremeOverload wrote:
LOR wrote:
tiers are actually supposed to be based off how a match up would go with two equally skilled players. if 2 equally matched players used a low tier and a high tier, the high tier player would win. I actually thought the way you do until i started getting into it more by playing with d-lor and palpi of lor. it makes a huge difference. low tier characters have many more vulnerablities. also if you are palying a low tier character against a character like falco or fox or marth, youll notice how you will not even be able to touch them because the combos, hit box (in marth's case) and speed of those characters are rape. this is only if you are playing "good" players. playing casually with your freinds wont make a difference. in casual play, i will agree with you that tiers dont make a difference because no one knows the advanced stuff.
Though I do agree with some of your statements, I still have to disagree with thee. Back when I used to watch Melee tournament vids, almost ever video i saw that had a fox/falco player that constantly set up for a chain grab maneuver only to be followed by a down smash for the kill. other player would spawn again, and the fox/falco would repeat. I don't believe that should justify them to be top tier. Like, if I remember correctly, I think Dedede was nominated for top tier at one point for the waddle dee toss, mulit jump and his almost perfect chain grab. So I dont think that certain characters should be top tier just cuz they can do a few things better than the others. This also applies for Pokemon.

As it has already been explained, tier lists are always changing, and they are never perfect. They do, however, give you a very good idea of which characters are good and which aren't. Captain Falcon will never win a large tournament in Brawl, Pichu will never win one in Melee.

As for your Fox/Falco example... Fox can only chain grab Falco, and Falco cannot chain grab anyone. There are many reasons as to why Fox/Falco are top tier, which I can explain if you would like.
But the reason you see so many Fox vs. Falco tournament videos and such is because all the lower-tiered characters do not make it far in tournaments. Even Axe, a Melee Pikachu main, will use Falco for certain match ups because he knows that Pikachu simply cannot beat certain characters at a tournament level.

As for Dedede, yes, he was thought to be the best... for, like, a week before the game was even released in America.


@Palpi:
I'm pretty sure that only MK has "laser" priority. IIRC, Marth and Ike do not have it, they just have really good disjointed hitboxes.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 8:55 pm

Speaking of Axe. Axe is probably one of most skilled players in the world. He is on the level of mango, mew2king, armada with his character. Axe uses pikachu and that is why he doesn't win tournaments with good competition.

edit; @dlor Some of ike's move like his upsmash and i think nair have it. Not sure bout marth though.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 8:57 pm

I'm being gang raped by a total of 3 people. All of which are using words I don't even. Palpi of Lor's d/p describes my feelings atm, lol. You can have this one.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 8:59 pm

ExtremeOverload wrote:
I'm being gang raped by a total of 3 people. All of which are using words I don't even. Palpi of Lor's d/p describes my feelings atm, lol. You can have this one.

Haha, if you don't understand something, ask, we can explain.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:00 pm

+1 to TEAM LOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:03 pm

D-Lor wrote:
ExtremeOverload wrote:
I'm being gang raped by a total of 3 people. All of which are using words I don't even. Palpi of Lor's d/p describes my feelings atm, lol. You can have this one.

Haha, if you don't understand something, ask, we can explain.
That's fine. Personally, I'd rather leave Smash to friendly play. The only game I'll ever play competitively will be Pokemon for the time being. If Brawl's online wasn't so laggy, then I'd actually play it more to get the terminology down.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:04 pm

sorry. we didnt mean to rape you. not me especially. im bad. d-lor and palpi are just trying to educate i think.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:05 pm

ExtremeOverload wrote:
D-Lor wrote:
ExtremeOverload wrote:
I'm being gang raped by a total of 3 people. All of which are using words I don't even. Palpi of Lor's d/p describes my feelings atm, lol. You can have this one.

Haha, if you don't understand something, ask, we can explain.
That's fine. Personally, I'd rather leave Smash to friendly play. The only game I'll ever play competitively will be Pokemon for the time being. If Brawl's online wasn't so laggy, then I'd actually play it more to get the terminology down.

Fair enough.
Just keep in mind that at a casual level, tiers mean nothing. At a casual level, skill gaps can be huge. At a competitive level, skill gaps are smaller, which allows us to make more accurate measures when it comes to these things.

LOR wrote:
sorry. we didnt mean to rape you. not me especially. im bad. d-lor and palpi are just trying to educate i think.

It's not rape, he was totally asking for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:07 pm

Palpi of Lor wrote:
+1 to TEAM LOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol. of course you would say that.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:20 pm

lmao


Last edited by ExtremeOverload on Sun May 09, 2010 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:21 pm

if you get people friend codes brawl online lag can be bearable with people on your coast.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting games?   Fri May 14, 2010 3:39 pm

Palpi of Lor wrote:
if you get people friend codes brawl online lag can be bearable with people on your coast.

welcome to nintendo Wifi
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