Tip of the Hat


 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 Spirituality/Religion

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Axe
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
avatar

Number of posts : 11606
Hedonistic Glory : 16107
Reputation : 229
Joined In : 2009-01-21
Age : 25
Location : Fort Wayne, IN

PostSubject: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:47 am

What is your system of beliefs? Are you a theist, or do you live by some sort of moral code? Please keep discussions civil, these threads can get pretty volatile.

Personally I'm a pretty spiritual person. Mostly I feel that the essence of a person is the most important thing, or even the essence of life. Humanity focuses so much on appearance, physical and otherwise, that they often forget what's important. What I mean by essence or spirit is the culmination of one's choices, purpose and emotions. Someone can appear to be a great person because of charity work or whatnot, but the important thing is why they are doing what they are doing. What drives them.

I live my life by a sort of moral code, mostly derived from christian and heathen philosophy. I'm by no means a devout Christian, there are some things I disagree with concerning the religion, but I consider myself a form of a Christian and follow many of the guidelines set. Most of my Christian belief comes from the basic tenets of the religion, like the belief in God and Christ.

Heathen philosophy plays a big role as well, even though it may seem like a big contradiction. I don't believe in it as a religion really, but more a philosophy for life. I also think that it teaches us to be more one with nature, which is something I'm very supporting of. I don't believe literally in the norse Gods, but I feel the moral code is a very good guide for us to live by. Also as the religion of my ancestors, I feel a sort of spiritual connection with it. If that makes sense.

I don't think it's necessary for everyone to believe in Gods or spirits or whatever, but I think it is necessary for everyone to have a code of morals or a belief about something, rather than just not caring. There has to be something that drives each and every one us, be it a religion or a moral code derived from personal thought and belief.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:24 am

I have sentiments with a majority of religion but I'm not a devout follower of anything. Moral codes are precisely what religion is good for: a benchmark in which to evaluate yourself as a man in the element of what you are. It isn't exactly definitive or omniscient as much as we would like to believe that it is.

Religion was likely given to us if not for the concept of it being a way of higher understanding, but to provide us that guideline. It's responsible for the evolution of thought and has been subject to interpretation for millenia, causing believers and non-believers to decipher and divide a way of cultural constructs.

The concept of religion is a little too easy to tarnish thanks to the fact the elements aren't (at least, in this stage of our lives) tangible, so I beg the question of whether or not there is any faith involved in the hereafter or gods versus if they have a code of honor.

Atheists are either very virtuous people or attachments to a name for the sake of convenience, and it's really not any different for people who earnestly practice their faith and those who merely leech onto it.

Put short, I have no affiliation with any religion despite my unwavering interest in it and I don't brand myself an Atheist.
Back to top Go down
VacuousReality
...
...


Number of posts : 5941
Hedonistic Glory : 9843
Reputation : 115
Joined In : 2009-02-18
Location : USA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:36 am

A lot of my beliefs, views, and "best speculations" run smack into common sense. I lost religion and morality when I was 10 years old. I recreated my morality out of principles which I felt I had to live by, which basically amount to a split between personal interests and a very calculated desire to better sentient experience. I've actually done this in such a way that emotions have become irrelevant for my morality (other than underpinning its principles)...everything a person can do based on how they feel I can do analogously with thought. Like if I have to make a decision between my family getting harmed or others sustaining even greater harm, I can either choose "personal interest" and save my family or I can choose "calculated betterment of sentient experience" and not save my family. And I'll tend toward the latter option, but if I really can't stomach it then I'll go with the former and credit it to emotional selfishness on my part. So I guess my personal morality is quite different from yours. However, this does not concern me, as I do consider my morality to be an utterly personal affair. It's quite irrelevant to me if people see it as misguided or evil...my goal wasn't to be "good," but to paint the world with my artistic vision because I am the artist of my life.

However my "best speculations" would suggest that even my actions are meaningless. This is where "game theory" comes in...I can choose the option that is neutral or good, or the option that is neutral or bad. I go with the neutral or good option, so even if I think my actions might be meaningless...I pretend they are meaningful.

As for God...I'm a hard agnostic, and I suspend belief in any deity. That would make me an atheist as well, but not an assertive one. I've tried to come up with beliefs in a deity that seemed reasonable and well-motivated, but they've always slipped from theism, to liberal theism, to deism, to pantheism. And in a sense I am a pantheist...I tend to view nature as God, where nature encompasses all that is. In other words, Spinoza's God.

Onto the purely speculative...I suspect nature fundamentally abstract, and there is no such thing as a dichotomy between manifest abstract entities and potential abstract entities. So all that is tenable does exist in this phantom-like sense, but it's what we call existence. I also don't think nature is discriminant between the possible worlds...humans find existence significant, circles and zeroes...but they hold no special significance outside our human minds. They simply have definitions and properties like all things do. If they are special in any way, it's due to their inherent properties. This is even speculative within my speculation, but I suspect nature is more about algorithms than it is about higher principles. I have a lot of thinking to do on that one though.

So that's the brief intro. I guess we can discuss these but first just getting them out there.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:19 pm

i feel like this thread was made before.

i choose usually not to discuss what i feel about things on this subject but im pretty open to everything and hate intolerance basically. unless its intolerance towards intolerance. that works i guess.

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
Bloodbeast
The Cuddle Monster
avatar

Number of posts : 1638
Hedonistic Glory : 4903
Reputation : 34
Joined In : 2009-08-26
Age : 25
Location : North Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:21 pm

This discussion, again?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:27 pm

Better than where it was originally when I unintentionally derailed byd's thread about stupid things we used to believe in growing up, yeah?
Back to top Go down
Taxer666
Trollsmith
Trollsmith
avatar

Number of posts : 7203
Hedonistic Glory : 10839
Reputation : 139
Joined In : 2009-11-24
Age : 26
Location : Riffsland

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:47 pm

I consider myself an agnostic atheist; it's somewhat odd though. As far as a deist approach to a deity/deities go, I am open to the idea and do not dismiss it as a possibility. I just simply do not know whether or not there is a higher power, a supreme bring if you will. However, I do dismiss certain deities, most notably the Christian god due to logical contradictions and historical inconsistencies. Pretty much I dismiss all popular notions of a deity or deities really aside from the deist or metaphysical and logical god.

As far as morality goes, I tend to take a Humean view; that is, there is no inherent good and evil -- such ideas are decided by one's emotions. By saying something is good or evil, we are merely professing our like or dislike of said thing. There is no such thing as the correctly morality, for it would be the same as trying to argue the best flavor of ice cream or the most aesthetically pleasing color. Our emotions ultimately trump our reason, sadly, for there is no battle between our desire and reason, but merely two different desires. All reason does is provide the logical consequence of said action, but reason in and of itself cannot dictate our actions. This is why I do not believe that we can base our morality on reason. For example, it would not be "unreasonable" for me to randomly want to murder someone because I would go to jail. It would just mean that my desire to kill is greater than my desire to not go to jail.

I do, however, realize that there seems to be a societal and genetic morality. The societal morality is just the ideas of morality that we grew up with by living in our respected culture. For example, in the western world, we see individuality and freedom as morally good, while eastern cultures tend to view collectivism and obedience as a moral good. The genetic aspect explains why we as a species tend to be "moral." Since we evolved as social creatures, we looked out for the tribe, for the loss of a tribe member meant a reduction in the chance for survival. This primitive tool of survival translates into charity, empathy, and compassion toward our fellow man.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
VacuousReality
...
...


Number of posts : 5941
Hedonistic Glory : 9843
Reputation : 115
Joined In : 2009-02-18
Location : USA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:24 am

So you think if someone says it's good to torture and kill babies then they aren't wrong because it's just "the way they feel" that's on the same footing as everyone else's feelings and judgments?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Taxer666
Trollsmith
Trollsmith
avatar

Number of posts : 7203
Hedonistic Glory : 10839
Reputation : 139
Joined In : 2009-11-24
Age : 26
Location : Riffsland

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:47 am

No, I would say it's wrong because I feel it's wrong.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Axe
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
avatar

Number of posts : 11606
Hedonistic Glory : 16107
Reputation : 229
Joined In : 2009-01-21
Age : 25
Location : Fort Wayne, IN

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:27 am

LOR wrote:
i feel like this thread was made before.

i choose usually not to discuss what i feel about things on this subject but im pretty open to everything and hate intolerance basically. unless its intolerance towards intolerance. that works i guess.

Bloodbeast wrote:
This discussion, again?

We've likely had a few threads like this before, but I thought it would be cool to have one serious thread about philosophy and spirituality. So participate if you want
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Axe
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
avatar

Number of posts : 11606
Hedonistic Glory : 16107
Reputation : 229
Joined In : 2009-01-21
Age : 25
Location : Fort Wayne, IN

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:29 am

Taxer666 wrote:
I consider myself an agnostic atheist; it's somewhat odd though. As far as a deist approach to a deity/deities go, I am open to the idea and do not dismiss it as a possibility. I just simply do not know whether or not there is a higher power, a supreme bring if you will. However, I do dismiss certain deities, most notably the Christian god due to logical contradictions and historical inconsistencies. Pretty much I dismiss all popular notions of a deity or deities really aside from the deist or metaphysical and logical god.

As far as morality goes, I tend to take a Humean view; that is, there is no inherent good and evil -- such ideas are decided by one's emotions. By saying something is good or evil, we are merely professing our like or dislike of said thing. There is no such thing as the correctly morality, for it would be the same as trying to argue the best flavor of ice cream or the most aesthetically pleasing color. Our emotions ultimately trump our reason, sadly, for there is no battle between our desire and reason, but merely two different desires. All reason does is provide the logical consequence of said action, but reason in and of itself cannot dictate our actions. This is why I do not believe that we can base our morality on reason. For example, it would not be "unreasonable" for me to randomly want to murder someone because I would go to jail. It would just mean that my desire to kill is greater than my desire to not go to jail.

I do, however, realize that there seems to be a societal and genetic morality. The societal morality is just the ideas of morality that we grew up with by living in our respected culture. For example, in the western world, we see individuality and freedom as morally good, while eastern cultures tend to view collectivism and obedience as a moral good. The genetic aspect explains why we as a species tend to be "moral." Since we evolved as social creatures, we looked out for the tribe, for the loss of a tribe member meant a reduction in the chance for survival. This primitive tool of survival translates into charity, empathy, and compassion toward our fellow man.

So basically you take a stance closer to subjective morality? What about things like murder that are almost universally considered immoral? Does that mean it's based off of the person's ideals whether or not it's actually immoral to them, or is it just the way you view things.

I guess a better way of asking that would be is that your thoughts on personal morality, or morality with the society as a whole? Because I feel there's a big difference in how we live our lives and what we thing others shouldn't do. Like I might feel it's wrong to do something, but is it okay for someone else to do that same thing. I hope that makes sense, I couldn't quite figure out how to word it right
Back to top Go down
View user profile
VacuousReality
...
...


Number of posts : 5941
Hedonistic Glory : 9843
Reputation : 115
Joined In : 2009-02-18
Location : USA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:08 am

Taxer666 wrote:
No, I would say it's wrong because I feel it's wrong.

So would other people be on the same footing or not? Or are you just saying it's a "for you" thing, and everyone has a "for them" thing?

I mean...I don't actually care. I just felt like pulling your chain because it's a very standard question to ask, and the way people react is interesting. I understood what you said in your initial post perfectly well (and pretty much completely agree), but just curious what your reaction to the baby torture question would be because it's a very traditional question to ask. You already know what my basic reaction is.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:05 am

It's socially acceptable for a government organization to torture somebody, with proof or not, to obtain information. It isn't socially acceptable for me to torture my old co-workers because I didn't like them, but knew things I wanted to know.

The means do not justify the ends in a wholly logical scenario, and logic is not something that people, indeterminate as they are, can rely on fully.

The concept of murder is a pretty easy (and oft tread) method of explaining the problem to people. For instance, say I killed your wife, without your wanting and seemingly without provocation. You're either going to want me to be persecuted to the highest extent, let the situation go and be miserable, or take matters into your own hands and make me pay for what I did. There are many reasons why these can be considered both socially acceptable and unacceptable, namely the "ends" in which you would take in seeking retribution for your loss.

If you killed me, you would be branded as both the man who sought to bring honor to an innocent party. You would also be the person that could not resort to thinking logically and try to let the system bring me to justice, becoming just as bad as I am for the mere concept of murder - justified or not.

If you ignored the problem, your mental faculties (assuming your character is relatively intact) would cheapen the investment you had in any other person. Your ability to converse with people would be shattered had they known you for what you did and your failing to follow up on it, effectively showing no want to help yourself or solve the problem. You choose to let fate hope that it works in your favor, forfeiting all control over your once coveted life. Some people commit suicide when things like this happen.

If you sought justice, whether or not you obtained it or not, you would be recognized by others as somebody who sought to bring honor to the innocent, but with a flawed system that can easily pit itself against anybody for any reason. Some may also brand you spineless for not taking matters into your own hands, a continuation of the previous statement where if you did nothing. Most people consider the justice system to prove effectively nothing, especially after recent cases let obvious murderers free to go. If I did a good job on my kill, you wouldn't have anything to go on and I would be found innocent.

The social problem is that we must find the evil we are most contented with at our core, and attempt to operate logically. If you were to exhaust all methods before allowing "id" to show up and wreak its damage, you may not be socially accepted for your decisions but you will be able to tell yourself that you attempted - and failed - to do things in an acceptable manner.

When it comes to something as personal as that, I believe it's perfectly acceptable to want to mete out retribution. It might make me less of a man to the world for destroying somebody, but it would be a personal redemption process (not particularly solving the fact that anybody is gone) which would likely ravage my mind until I went mad from wanting to accomplish it. It makes you feel good but there will still be that emptiness, and while that emptiness will likely never fade, there are checks and balances.

Sometimes, logic must take a back seat, and to route this back on topic... a lot of religion doesn't believe that murder is acceptable by any means. Yet, we have jihad, the Crusades of old, random murders by religious zealots, et cetera. Why is this acceptable to them?
Back to top Go down
Axe
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
avatar

Number of posts : 11606
Hedonistic Glory : 16107
Reputation : 229
Joined In : 2009-01-21
Age : 25
Location : Fort Wayne, IN

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:04 am

That's one thing I have always wondered, but I think it's a corruption of the belief system. Many, or even most, people do not follow their religious code to a t. Hence the religious extremists, or just every day people who pick and choose what they want to believe if it fits their lifestyle. I for one think that's the biggest reason people look down upon organized religion, myself included. When people band together, their negative personal choices seem less negative because they are surrounded by other "religious" people who make the same choices. It's okay to go on a religious war against others because everyone else is doing it.

As for retribution, I'm not really sure where I stand on that. I used to believe in the eye for an eye rule, but as a society we can't use such a mentality, or we'll all be nuked to hell one day (its likely anyway)

Ultimately I'm on the fence, but I think imprisonment is the way to go. If you murder someone in cold blood, life imprisonment. Of course, some would say that we have a flawed system (which we do) but ultimately I think it's better than seeking personal vengeance, because then that just leads to more problems. Why is it okay for me to take a life just because that particular life did the same? Ignoring actions it all boils down to the same thing, and when people see a person get away with a murder even though the circumstances were the closest they can get to acceptable, it causes a whole mess of issues and problems with society.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
VacuousReality
...
...


Number of posts : 5941
Hedonistic Glory : 9843
Reputation : 115
Joined In : 2009-02-18
Location : USA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:26 am

In my eyes emotions are a consequence, not a justification. If I feel like killing someone then my emotions don't provide justification (at least I don't think of it that way), but rather some degree of incentive.

Personally I'm heavily against retribution. It's virtually always impractical, except in strange situations where you need to convince your opponent that you have a retributive nature for strategic purposes (and for some reason deceit isn't an option). Of course retribution can be highly attractive, but then I just say do your best to not engage in it unless you really can't help yourself...and still weigh the consequences at all times.

Punishment is about deterring crime and quarantining criminals. Or it could also be used strategically like in times of war. Punishment purely for emotional purposes is something else though...if you think it's going to be /worth it/ then fine, but if you don't think it's going to be worth it yet you think you have to do it anyway just because you feel it's right then you're just screwing yourself over and possibly others as well.

And thank God people don't follow their religious belief systems to a T. We can be better without forcing dogmas upon ourselves. A lot of people say religious texts inspire their morality, and I guess that's great although personally I honestly don't see what a religious text has to bring to the table of morality that a person couldn't figure out by themselves and for themselves. And a lot of what it has to bring to the table is harmful as well, so it's got basically unnecessary good things to say, and unwanted bad things to say. And it teaches people "right and wrong," which is dangerous if they find some harmful things to be "right" and some harmless things to be "wrong."

Instead I propose raising children not by forcing dogma on them, but by appealing to their better nature and applauding such...and teaching them critical thinking skills, teaching them it's okay to question anything, valuing their education, and valuing their physical and mental health with common sense, compassion, and scientific knowledge as guidelines for action.

This sets them up as an individually healthy person, a healthy participant in society, and an individual ready to navigate through the world with the least chances of getting sucked into irrational traps that harm everyone overall.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:51 pm

The fact of a matter is that the human psyche has these checks and balances. While retribution isn't at all attractive when you look at it for its lingering negative impact, if you have exhausted all other option and you are watching the person who took away your loved one get by without a trace...

Emotion will take over. Maybe not instantly. Your mind will be eaten by it. The only people able to resist that path are people who do not care to implicate themselves for fear of danger above seeking an end to a problem that will remain constant no matter what they do.

Do you let them go or do you take up the gun? I'm not saying "eye for an eye" because every example isn't as bleak as this one and I like to try to function logically on most issues.

It isn't so much a feeling that it is the right thing to do than it is what must be done. There is no rest after those times: you have been irrevocably robbed of a part of your life you will never see again by somebody who either had a vendetta or did it for sport. I would, at that point, cast logic aside.

So what if it isn't right on a moral code? I don't think murder's the correct answer or the right way to end any problem and it isn't meant to be right. Killing your offender doesn't solve the problem, but you have to either suspend or expend these sensations depending on the gravity of the situation.

If it's a moral breach of code, I'm more than prepared to face the consequences. At that point, the consequence is no longer relevant because society failed to bring true justice. They are no longer fit for your scenario and are, by that scenario only, able to be disregarded.
Back to top Go down
VacuousReality
...
...


Number of posts : 5941
Hedonistic Glory : 9843
Reputation : 115
Joined In : 2009-02-18
Location : USA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:33 pm

Well if retribution is worth it (all things considered including emotional aspects), then of course it's worth it. Now if it's not worth it but it's just something you *have* to do, then that's something too (although you could take that as an opportunity to seek help as well).

I don't think retribution through murder is always a necessity. I'd say most cases where a person wants to kill someone for retribution, they would be better off not doing it and just living with what happened, and seeking comfort in family/friends when/if possible.

Now there is another thing here that is interesting...the concept that this person somehow escaped justice. However the person who did this is just a machine like all other things, and it's up to the individual to decide how they perceive them. It's possible to regard a person killing someone you love in a similar way you would regard someone you love dying due to an accident (and by you I just mean someone, although I'm sure it wouldn't be possible for some people at some times). That's certainly the approach I would take. The murder to me would be like an old tree by a road where its branches fall off and kill drivers from time to time. I'd want the tree cut down to keep the road safe, and bring some closure and meaning to what happened (at least it's done with), but there wouldn't be any resentment of the tree.

Now maybe not everyone can see it that way, but that's the way I see it. Now whether or not I'd feel contempt anyway, that's hard to say...and it would depend on some factors. Certain things bother me more than others. I regret crimes of passion, I'm agitated by reckless crimes, I find crimes that seem reasonable unfortunate, and lastly I detest it when people commit crime in an air of self-righteousness or intolerance. That has everything to do with just personal quirks. Ideally I wouldn't hold any hatred ever, and that's indeed what I always strive for...or at least I try to tame hatred.

If you come to a point where you've formed a contempt so strong that you lose the ability to assess the situation reasonably, then that's unfortunate but that happens sometimes. I'm not saying it couldn't happen to me either. From what I've gathered it seems it could happen to me as well, as much as I don't like that thought and try to change it by "mental bookkeeping."
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:25 pm

It isn't self-righteous to commit a crime to justify another's wrongdoing, but you do lose your ability to reconcile with it.

Funny enough, that's the same way we break away from religion.
Back to top Go down
Taxer666
Trollsmith
Trollsmith
avatar

Number of posts : 7203
Hedonistic Glory : 10839
Reputation : 139
Joined In : 2009-11-24
Age : 26
Location : Riffsland

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:29 pm

Axe wrote:


So basically you take a stance closer to subjective morality? What about things like murder that are almost universally considered immoral? Does that mean it's based off of the person's ideals whether or not it's actually immoral to them, or is it just the way you view things.

I guess a better way of asking that would be is that your thoughts on personal morality, or morality with the society as a whole? Because I feel there's a big difference in how we live our lives and what we thing others shouldn't do. Like I might feel it's wrong to do something, but is it okay for someone else to do that same thing. I hope that makes sense, I couldn't quite figure out how to word it right

Murder is no universally immoral, it is only immoral for humans. There could exist some species out there that is capable of emotion and rational thought that would see murder as a virtue or sign of strength.

As a whole, there exists a common mortality for humans due to evolution. Like I said earlier, murder is likely seen as evil by most people due to some tribal instinct where the survival of the group was a necessity. Once we get past evolutionary morality, we get into cultural morality; I'm not really sure how this one started though, but I see that it exists. Lastly, there is personal morality, which is the ultimate sense of what we deem to be good or bad. We might try to adopt some moral code, and while we might rationalize something to be good or bad, unless the said action manifests itself into a sensation of good or bad, then we won't deem the action to be a vice or virtue. If anything, we will feel bad for breaking our adopted moral code rather than by the action itself that breaks the moral code.

VacuousReality wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
No, I would say it's wrong because I feel it's wrong.

So would other people be on the same footing or not? Or are you just saying it's a "for you" thing, and everyone has a "for them" thing?

I mean...I don't actually care. I just felt like pulling your chain because it's a very standard question to ask, and the way people react is interesting. I understood what you said in your initial post perfectly well (and pretty much completely agree), but just curious what your reaction to the baby torture question would be because it's a very traditional question to ask. You already know what my basic reaction is.


I will deem things to be good or bad, but I ultimately realize that I have no justification for attributing those qualities to any thing other than "it feels to me that X is good/bad." Nevertheless, I do not see morality as a realm of rationality, so trying to rationalize our moral judgement is ultimately moot. Rather, we must recognize what our moral judgement on matter tends to be, for we must be aware of our moral bias before we get into the realm of ethics.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
VacuousReality
...
...


Number of posts : 5941
Hedonistic Glory : 9843
Reputation : 115
Joined In : 2009-02-18
Location : USA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:41 am

I really want to live this morality I've created because it is the most aesthetically pleasing to me. It's calculative, unnatural, altruistic, and everything I adore. And practical once I allow for self-interested moves. I don't think in terms of right/wrong or justice. I don't think of people as deserving things either. That's not because for some strange reason I try to avoid such a view, but rather I actually don't understand it. The concept that people deserve certain things for their actions completely eludes me in every way. All people are pieces of art to me, and they are all part of a greater picture of nature.

When it comes to questions of moral philosophy I have a hard time stating my views. I guess the simplest way to put it is that the only objective truths are those of nature and formal languages. Nature has to be fit to a rigorous model, and we say the model is good if it provides a relatively accurate description of the phenomenon it is intended to describe. A perfect model would account for every detail of reality in a flawless manner, such that any possible combination of initial parameters will lead to a correct prediction from the model. For example Newtonian physics would obviously fail here, because it would provide false predictions in certain describable physical scenarios. Or something like that...I'm not done elaborating on this one. This is definitely an incomplete picture. I might actually try reading what a philosopher has to say for once...there are a few that would be worthwhile to look into after seeing a few things in passing.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
spineshank155
A Very Classy Extreme Metalhead
avatar

Number of posts : 547
Hedonistic Glory : 3072
Reputation : 9
Joined In : 2011-03-19
Location : Illinois, USA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:18 am

I was raised Christian and while i agree with many of the fundamentals which many hold dearly to them, there's much about this religion that i don't like. Really, religion to me is nothing more then a cult trying to set some ground rules that no matter what you have to follow or your cast out as an outsider.

The one thing i never understand about Christians though is the way they think. For instance, i knew someone who's parents are both Christian & his mom is kinda loopy but she means well.. well this guy got into fights with his mom all the time over ridiculous things. One time he ordered a 'Hate Eternal' band tshirt online, his mom found out when the package came in & she threw it out because it 'promotes satanism'. A $21 shirt thrown out because it was 'satanic'. Now, already i know or don't really care whether Hate Eternal promotes satanism. Even if they do (i have an album by them but never really checked out the lyrics) i really find it wasteful & wrong. But of course many Christians will agree with the parents, or at the most.. 'well it was his fault for buying it in the first place, he'll learn a lesson from this'.

Regardless i wouldn't have cared myself. If my child bought oorn i would actually either educate him properly first or if he already knows then i find it ok. If he's interested in that kind of thing who am i to argue, it's in our nature to enjoy that kind of thing. However, i would frown upon my child to 'violate' someone. Then i would let the justice system convict him or her (but it would mostly be a him lol)

This to me is just common sense. Why would religion be necessary? On the other hand spiritually you want to be strong. You want to feel that life is worth living.. even tho many times for me it doesn't feel that way.. if you read my post on our future, based on what i'm seeing.. we don't have much of a chance.

I believe we have something in us that we can contribute to the world if we allow it.. we also have the ability to destroy it. I don't really know if God really exists or really he's just in all of us & every person is considered a god which is a quote from Behemoth's Demigod

The original quote:
Quote :
I have not seen a man who is not god already... - Austin Osman Spare, Book of Pleasure

It's something i understand because technically.. we all have the power to create life. We also possess the power to create technology & to solve difficult problems. Many times you wonder, how were we able to create a shiny disc that has millions of bytes of random information like music, movies or data. That's a pretty impressive piece of technology & you could say that came from God. In what we understand though, is that a person had a gift to create it. Someone who understood something clearly many others wouldn't understood how it worked until you'd show them how it works. The truth is we all have abilities, some of us don't really know what it is yet & many die senselessly without knowing what they could do to improve life on earth. To me that's what God is. We live dealing with the good vs. evil and really evil is mostly the 'unknown'. We don't know when the next disaster will hit & for some deal with it every single day. The thing i'd like to believe in is good will win. But when people start to realize they have the ability to change things depending on if it's good or bad they tend to focus on it. If they feel good from making a person suffer.. then what's the good in that. Perhaps they have fallen short of their faith or maybe it's because they were raised poorly.

Bottom line, for me.. the only thing im being driven to is to try to change the world any way i can.. to make it better. Unfortunately this seems like a tedious & unnwinnable situation but when people realize if they helped pitch in rather then do nothing about their dismays & let evil win we'd might make progress. The problem is living in this day to day life i tend to shelter myself from others rather then trying to get involved due to stress & frustration. No one really likes a whiner & really when there's nothing you can do about something then it becomes difficult to cope with. It's one thing to deal with an issue from time to time, but then there's times where day in & day out your dealing with the same unpleasant thing over & over again it just wears you down.

I wouldn't have said this 6 or 7 years ago while i was still living at home but since iv'e been on my own i never have been prepared for it. Sure i pay my bills on time most of the time & i have some debt.. on the surface that's really no problem. I can cope with that. The problem i have is dealing with constant issues with my job, the lack of jobs, high gas prices as well as other things. It has really put a strain on my faith & i'm sure others feel the same or having to cope with the same thing. Roommates never worked out for me either, which i have a hard time trusting. The thing with me, i always paid my bills on time, tried to keep the place clean (even tho sometimes it didn't happen) but it's the person im rooming with. One kept having friends LIVE there when it's a violation of the lease, another sorta freaked me out a little but also was behind/lack of funds & the last one which was female was interested in me yet never paid her half of the bills. That was the last straw. I think since im getting older im getting more impatient but i refuse to steal, make someone's life miserable & kill someone out of spite or w/e. I don't ever try to lash out at anyone however lately i've just been feeling allot of hatred like i used to, mostly the current society. I really just want to be happy. Some people can't seem to grasp that as well.. why wish that happy person a miserable time, what will it accomplish? Your life sucks so you want to inflct the same pain you have to deal with? I sometimes get yelled at work because 'something' didn't go right for them so they gotta get me upset over something dumb? This is not a very good mindset in my opinion.

One thing i find, if you want someone to like you or at least get respect you don't give them any problems. Treat others llke you want to be treated. No one likes being treated like crap so why would someone do this then? To me it makes no sense and at times i might get angry but i avoid at all costs try to show my anger at a person that got me mad, or worse get mad at someone who doesn't deserve it.

Ahh.. well this is getting long. I'm not a religious person but i try to live by a code of honor & morality to the best of my ability.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.last.fm/user/spineshank155
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:22 am

Converted to Paganism. I feel connected to the spiritual world again. Smile
Back to top Go down
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:58 pm

i think paganism is really cool, every time i talk to a pagan, im always super interested but its weird, i dont know if i ever want to convert to it... though i always think i want to. maybe one day!

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
Taxer666
Trollsmith
Trollsmith
avatar

Number of posts : 7203
Hedonistic Glory : 10839
Reputation : 139
Joined In : 2009-11-24
Age : 26
Location : Riffsland

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:01 pm

Paganism is dumb. It's almost as dumb as Wiccan. You'll eventually be an atheist, it's just a phase.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:07 pm

well, who cares if its dumb? its interesting and cool

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
Taxer666
Trollsmith
Trollsmith
avatar

Number of posts : 7203
Hedonistic Glory : 10839
Reputation : 139
Joined In : 2009-11-24
Age : 26
Location : Riffsland

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:41 pm

It's quite the opposite of interesting and cool
Back to top Go down
View user profile
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:14 pm

maybe for you Razz i think religion is an interesting thing regardless of the religion, even if i'd prefer for no one to ever follow it haha.

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
breakyoudown
Feeling brassic
Feeling brassic
avatar

Number of posts : 27750
Hedonistic Glory : 25404
Reputation : 302
Joined In : 2008-08-28
Age : 26

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:14 pm

I think its pretty stupid too, its in medieval programming like Game of Thrones, King Arthur, etc for a reason lol

_________________
From this moment forth, my thoughts be bloody, or be nothing worth
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:31 am

Taxer666 wrote:
Paganism is dumb. It's almost as dumb as Wiccan. You'll eventually be an atheist, it's just a phase.
I've been an atheist for more than a decade, actually. This is a spiritual awakening for me.
Back to top Go down
Taxer666
Trollsmith
Trollsmith
avatar

Number of posts : 7203
Hedonistic Glory : 10839
Reputation : 139
Joined In : 2009-11-24
Age : 26
Location : Riffsland

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:36 am

You'll grow out of it soon enough
Back to top Go down
View user profile
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:34 am

breakyoudown wrote:
I think its pretty stupid too, its in medieval programming like Game of Thrones, King Arthur, etc for a reason lol

yeah those stories suck






























Razz

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:53 am

LOR - you suck. Love, Cameron
Back to top Go down
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:55 am

what? it was supposed to be sarcastic haha. hence the tongue sticking out emoticon. im on your side!

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:42 pm

my bad. LOR - you rock asshole. Love, Cameron
Back to top Go down
breakyoudown
Feeling brassic
Feeling brassic
avatar

Number of posts : 27750
Hedonistic Glory : 25404
Reputation : 302
Joined In : 2008-08-28
Age : 26

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:43 pm

Is anyone going to respond to spineshanks thoughts? lol

_________________
From this moment forth, my thoughts be bloody, or be nothing worth
Back to top Go down
View user profile
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:31 pm

breakyoudown wrote:
Is anyone going to respond to spineshanks thoughts? lol

they're pretty neat haha. i reread it later, gotta get ready for work

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
GuyIncognito
True Gentleman
avatar

Number of posts : 1151
Hedonistic Glory : 4119
Reputation : 58
Joined In : 2010-06-08
Age : 23
Location : Over The Hills And Far Away

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:58 pm

LOR wrote:
i think paganism is really cool, every time i talk to a pagan, im always super interested but its weird, i dont know if i ever want to convert to it... though i always think i want to. maybe one day!

This is mostly my reaction. No offense Cameron. It's incredibly fascinating, yet I can't see myself ever being one.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:32 pm

i reread spineshank's thoughts... and i realized that no one really responded because its basically things everyone can agree with haha. not much controversy in there Very Happy

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:45 am

ThatNaggerGuy wrote:
LOR wrote:
i think paganism is really cool, every time i talk to a pagan, im always super interested but its weird, i dont know if i ever want to convert to it... though i always think i want to. maybe one day!

This is mostly my reaction. No offense Cameron. It's incredibly fascinating, yet I can't see myself ever being one.

its certainly not something you just pick up. i felt them and they don't obstruct the way i want to live. Smile
Back to top Go down
Axe
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
avatar

Number of posts : 11606
Hedonistic Glory : 16107
Reputation : 229
Joined In : 2009-01-21
Age : 25
Location : Fort Wayne, IN

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:17 am

I'm a christian but I believe we can all learn a lot from pagan/heathen philosophies. Not many of them actually believe in a bunch of random Gods. I tend to take the naturalist approach from Pagan religions. Whether or not you believe in a divine being, there is no denying that this world is a very divine place. Even if it was not created by an entity, this world and the systems at work in nature are what keep us alive and going. Maybe you shouldn't worship nature, but definitely respect and fear it. Nature created us and nature will likely destroy us one day. I also feel that when I'm in a natural place, away from society and modern civilization, I feel the most "in tune" with the world and my inner being.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:26 am

im definitely with that last statement of yours.

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies


Last edited by LOR on Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
spineshank155
A Very Classy Extreme Metalhead
avatar

Number of posts : 547
Hedonistic Glory : 3072
Reputation : 9
Joined In : 2011-03-19
Location : Illinois, USA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:18 pm

breakyoudown wrote:
Is anyone going to respond to spineshanks thoughts? lol

I will, i don't agree with him.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.last.fm/user/spineshank155
spineshank155
A Very Classy Extreme Metalhead
avatar

Number of posts : 547
Hedonistic Glory : 3072
Reputation : 9
Joined In : 2011-03-19
Location : Illinois, USA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:20 pm

LOR wrote:
i reread spineshank's thoughts... and i realized that no one really responded because its basically things everyone can agree with haha. not much controversy in there Very Happy

Except the conspiracy demons.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.last.fm/user/spineshank155
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:27 am

damn demons...lol

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
Taxer666
Trollsmith
Trollsmith
avatar

Number of posts : 7203
Hedonistic Glory : 10839
Reputation : 139
Joined In : 2009-11-24
Age : 26
Location : Riffsland

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:36 pm

Civilization and modernity is nature.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Axe
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
avatar

Number of posts : 11606
Hedonistic Glory : 16107
Reputation : 229
Joined In : 2009-01-21
Age : 25
Location : Fort Wayne, IN

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:41 am

Taxer666 wrote:
Civilization and modernity is nature.

And pretzels
Back to top Go down
View user profile
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:06 pm

Axe wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
Civilization and modernity is nature.

And pretzels

and mustard

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
Taxer666
Trollsmith
Trollsmith
avatar

Number of posts : 7203
Hedonistic Glory : 10839
Reputation : 139
Joined In : 2009-11-24
Age : 26
Location : Riffsland

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:24 pm

If it exists, then it is natural and a part of nature. Simple as that.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
LOR
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
Ninja Viking Lord of the Pit of Despair and Stuff
avatar

Number of posts : 7797
Hedonistic Glory : 11226
Reputation : 77
Joined In : 2010-05-01
Age : 26
Location : PA

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:48 pm

Taxer666 wrote:
If it exists, then it is natural and a part of nature. Simple as that.

i agree

_________________
my bands- Lör
Top Hats and Effigies
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/halloflor
Axe
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
Frenzied Folk Barbarian
avatar

Number of posts : 11606
Hedonistic Glory : 16107
Reputation : 229
Joined In : 2009-01-21
Age : 25
Location : Fort Wayne, IN

PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:32 am

Part of the nature of a creature, like human nature, but not part of the natural world. That refers to the world devoid of human-ruination
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   

Back to top Go down
 
Spirituality/Religion
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» The Warmers are watching as their religion becomes as obscure as Pictish Polytheism
» Mens True Religion Flare Jeans has been with the warranty accessible

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Tip of the Hat :: Preposterous Palaver and Infinite Jest-
Jump to: