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Taxer666
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:06 am

The natural world consists of everything that exists, for even made made creations exist in nature. It's simple definitions.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:24 pm

Taxer's right, in the Spinoza sense of the word. Axe bears the Romanticist perspective and he's right too. Shut the fuck up.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:00 pm

human's are part of the natural world...unless someone discovers that we aren't...which would explain a few things.

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:13 pm

Shut your trap, just sayin'.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:37 am

wow, i didn't see most of these responses. ahhhhh.... page change

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:46 am

Technically you're right. Everything is "natural" if it exists, but I mean natural in terms of existence without interaction from a being. Like, if I don't raze a forest to a ground and build a parking lot. That's natural. But if I do raze said forest to the ground, and build a parking lot, it is unnatural because I am changing the environment as it is without human interaction

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 am

your just excluding human's from nature. i understand that as that's society's view on what is considered natural and unnatural. taxer and I are just pointing out that "technically" its not an accurate description. im just busting you're balls to be perfectly honest. its fun to poke holes in things.

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:58 pm

Spoiler because it's off topic.

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:26 pm

Yeah I admit that technically you're right. That's just what I mean. Natural in terms of nature. Buildings aren't nature, trees and rocks and shit are

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:52 pm

Glockanist here. What is glockanisim you may ask? It's a religion in which there is a god for everything including a god of heavy metal! It worships the creator god of nothingness and is extremely tolerant of other religions. I made it up
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:35 am

blackstar wrote:
Spoiler because it's off topic.

Spoiler:
 

lol!

Axe wrote:
Yeah I admit that technically you're right. That's just what I mean. Natural in terms of nature. Buildings aren't nature, trees and rocks and shit are

yep i gotcha

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:10 pm

Atheist.

The concept of religion, more explicitly theism and the adherence to set beliefs, in the face of rational thought and the modern world perplexes me.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:29 pm

Like our founding father's I'll label myself a deist.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:46 pm

I'm somewhat of a tibetan buddhist now. Probably one of the most metal religions. I'm still going through a religious phase, where I'm trying out all sorts of crazy ass religions, but I think Tibetan Buddhism is sticking.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:46 pm

Was raised Catholic, feel like I've been Atheist since I was around 19.
Don't agree with a lot of things

Anyone who is too religious or too Atheist is the worst

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:55 pm

There aren't degrees of Atheism--you either are or you aren't. However, there are degrees of how passionate you are about your beliefs.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:29 pm

Yeah, poor phrasing

I feel like I'm almost being a bad guy going against what 90% of the family believes in. My sister is not getting a Catholic marriage and my parents thought that was a pretty big deal. I don't know. School could do a better job showing every side.

My Christian schools were like:
You can believe in God and go to heaven
or
You can do something else I guess

Alright lets watch a Christian Movie

I also felt that guilt is used a lot in Christianity. A poor man that only wants to treat everyone well is being blamed and tortured. Makes a good script, but as I got older I couldn't accept it as being real life. Sounds like a little bit newer of a story than the Odyssey or something

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:47 pm

GuyIncognito wrote:
Like our founding father's I'll label myself a deist.
they were secularists, man.

@byd - totally agree. religion is heavily based on guilt and fear. original sin. just another psychosis. its not a model that will help adapt to the world itself. and life is hard enough without all that bullshit and having to see God in his special little tax-exempt house every Sunday.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:09 pm

Gravy Gulper wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:
Like our founding father's I'll label myself a deist.
they were secularists, man.

@byd - totally agree. religion is heavily based on guilt and fear. original sin. just another psychosis. its not a model that will help adapt to the world itself. and life is hard enough without all that bullshit and having to see God in his special little tax-exempt house every Sunday.

I believe Jefferson & Franklin were both Deists. Thomas Paine was also one. As was John Locke.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon May 13, 2013 5:03 pm

I'm an atheist, but am being raised in a strongly Christian family. My parents are kind of okay with it, and I don't go with them to church anymore, but I do think it puts some kind of strain on our familial ties, you know?

I was actually very devout for most of my life, but I started reading philosophy a few years ago. The philosophers I immediately took a liking to were somewhat bizarre with their religious views (Aristotle, definitely one of my favorites, believed divinity existed separate from the world, so in a sense he was a dualist. But he very rarely incorporated religion into his philosophy). Then, there are other philosophers I grew to enjoy reading and understanding, such as the infamous Rand. Rand is strongly opposed to religion, and after two or three of her novels I had completely left the realm of religion.

Most of my good friends are quite religious, and they've always been accepting of my views, so I've been very accepting of theirs. I do enjoy reading about various theologies and such. I think religious existentialism, such as Kierkegaard, while I don't agree with it very much, is one of the most interesting fields of thought around.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon May 13, 2013 6:17 pm

Religion turns a lot of people who are in dark places towards a better life buuuuuuut



I think religion being considered when it comes to major laws is a huge problem.

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon May 13, 2013 8:52 pm

^ that. unfortunately, a good deal of people don't understand that.

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue May 14, 2013 4:32 pm

Religion might have kept me from becoming a mass murderer but i think it tends to hold our society back a little.

If people go on believing that evil exists in this world for a reason and not because we choose to live our lives that way maybe we could achieve freedom and peace. It's just a thought...
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:04 pm

Hmm my two cents. First of all, who cares. No really; not in a "holier than thou" way but really, its one of those things that I can now talk about and be rather complacent about, almost like the supernatural. There's people out there that will burst a blood vessel if you state you don't believe in ghosts, or even psychics. I used to argue with people who had a strong faith in Catholicism. Maybe I had some sort of Richard Dawkins/Bill Maher superiority complex going on but really, I disagreed so strongly with their reason for believing that I thought it was worth yellin about. Than I realized that you can't argue "faith" with someone. If someone believes, you can't start getting into how crazy following an ancient book is. It comes down to "well I believe that"...because no one knows what's right for sure. So I've decided I don't care if you worship a god, Zenu or the flying spagetti monster as long as you don't shove it down my throat. Think what you want, as I will think what I want, but as soon as someone starts telling me I am wrong and they are right, or I am making some sort of error by not thinking the same as them, is when I start having a problem.
As byd mentioned, I refused to have a Catholic wedding. After 12 years of Catholic school and 18 years of church, I had enough of it all. The guilting, the incorrect information (thanks for nothing, health class), the lack of explaining other belief systems, the sexism, the worshipping, all of it. By university, I could not stand to hear one more priest telling us how confession was necessary, how we had to pray for the sanctity of marriage, the hope that abortion would end, contraception being evil. No, no and no and many no's later. If we got married in a church, you'd have to go to marriage courses. And tell some guy (he's a priest but to me, he's just a guy) that we live together, don't need the Bible stories, and don't agree with any of this crap would not fly). Just sitting there pretending to listen was a farce, and I imagined how many people go to church and feel the same. Why? It seems alot of people go out of habit, they were raised that way, the guilt, family pressure, fear. Alot of it is fear. Every once in awhile I catch myself praying for something, and think...who the heck am I praying to? I don't believe there's a god I'm praying to. All the years of church could not convince me of that. No, it's just the feeling of comfort that comes from truly hoping something happens, or someone will be okay. I believe the fear of death itself is what keeps the faith for some people but that's a whole other story.
Anyways, if religion is what gets you up in the morning, what comforts you through a hard time, who am I to say that you are wrong? I just personally think religion is used as both a coping mechanism since life is so crazy and of course, a method of control. Imagine where we would be if religion had not been stifling science for thousands of years? It can be argued that we would be less "moral" (we'd sure have a lot less nice classic art) but really, I think its the law and human conscience that keeps us in line, not the hand of god coming down from the heavens and smiting us puny humans.
Anyways, worship whatever, just don't preach to me, and definitley don't come to my front door./end
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:45 pm

The problem with religion is people who practice it poorly. Otherwise, religion is a basis of moral integrity and should be treated as a baseline for human spirituality, believer or not. I do not profess religion but I subscribe to a lot of religious doctrine as part of a regimen to understand other forms of spirituality.

To this effect, religion means a lot to me but not enough to where I will take it to the grave. It is a pretty concept, but if it does not exist, I will not be surprised.

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:35 am

I'm an Apatheist. It doesn't really matter if there is or isn't a greater power.

This picture sums it up pretty well for me.
http://atheismandme.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/dewey-Malcom-in-the-middle-GOD.jpg
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:23 pm

I used to be a Christian, but then I found out that I was born and raised in Compton.

Gwonam wrote:
The problem with religion is people who practice it poorly. Otherwise, religion is a basis of moral integrity and should be treated as a baseline for human spirituality, believer or not. I do not profess religion but I subscribe to a lot of religious doctrine as part of a regimen to understand other forms of spirituality.

To this effect, religion means a lot to me but not enough to where I will take it to the grave. It is a pretty concept, but if it does not exist, I will not be surprised.

I disagree quite a bit here. I would say that most of our moral sense is innate, which makes religious doctrine unnecessary at best. There are some great ideas here and there scattered throughout many religions, but if you follow your religion of choice down to the wire, you will more than likely end up being a terrible human being. The fact that most people pick and choose which aspects of their religion they wish to follow already speaks of how insignificant and off-base religion really is.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:23 pm

Innate? What teaches the golden rule as best as religion has down the years?

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:03 pm

The fact that we have survived as long as we have as a species? You don't need religion to realize that fucking shit up in your social group will lead to your death. Besides, not all religions teach the golden rule, and those that do teach it also have lessons that contradict it as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:14 am

I can remember the schools teaching us how pro-choice is evil by showing us abortion movies. One kid in my class actually fainted during it. She got light headed and passed out. This wouldn't have happened if that baby was born and raised poorly like it should have been.

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:30 pm

I take it political suicide is tantamount to tribal ousting in primeval human society, yes? I mean just look at WBC, they're getting all the tax breaks in the world but the Christian community, not to mention the rest of the modern world, doesn't give them a break.

All funny business aside, I think you're undercompensating for the crutch that we've been presented with roughly 2100 years ago, and some even further beyond. Sure, our pack mentality and opposable thumbs made us expert hunter-gatherers once upon a time, but to any degree of intellectual progress that isn't enough to keep a social circle satisfied. You can chalk the miracle of the invention of the wheel and the discovery of fire so much to where it becomes rudimentary, and the all too obvious war of attrition begins, absolutely bereft of any thought beyond survival itself. That isn't an example of progress. It's stagnation. The smart people of that era were probably going "all you need to do is chisel this stone a particular way and you're good, you don't need to fight," but the less apt didn't know how to handle their issues without doing what came naturally to them. War. This is exactly what religion does, Taxer: it takes people that need direction to function and integrates them into society at large, giving them an acceptable route to exacerbate their beliefs into a system that in turn provides them with some mental solace to continue to exist in civilization. It lets people feel important, and maybe even necessary. Is it bullshit? Maybe it is - but the question of faith is debatable. The smart people get to go back to work and the other ones get to go to the mud pits to worship to Sun-Ra M. Night Shamallama Ding-Dong. Whatever helps them sleep at night, yes?

I'm not saying religion is good by default because most profess a decent moral guideline via colorful stories of messiahs and the mortals who tended to them, but for the most part it isn't bad either. We enable a society of people who choose faith to quench their thirst for the esoteric to continue to deliberate with others who share the same belief. Maybe this argument holds weight in the Middle East, where this sort of concept is every day life; religious warriors blowing themselves up for jihad while orphans and widows just want war to end. Those people exist just as much as the lunatics who enable war via religion, but to think war is only the problem brought on by religion is wrong. Survival in this day and age doesn't require religion or lack thereof, but do people still take heed and fight, for or against it?

All you have to do is replace "religious" with "gay" and you essentially have the same problem. People choosing a lifestyle that molds a lot of the choices they make, believe in for reasons they understand that others may find immoral or wrong, and come under fire for it for few reasons other than shunning the non-conformist breeder mentality. I'm not saying gays have waged a war in the name of Magic Mike, mind you. Religious people do some stupid things. Nevertheless, is it an acceptable response to remove religion merely because it doesn't make sense to the scientific method? To our past as a species of animals gone rogue? We're not all Fra Savonarola, trying to return to the good old days of "no thoughts, no institutions, no religion, only Eden."

There's few more important things than recalling the mistakes of history and none do it as well as religion. I'm sure that's contentment enough for those who choose not to believe. I think a little acceptance can go a long way, even if the other person's choice of lifestyle seems insane. 40 years ago we were putting black people at the backs of buses, after all. Now look at the President. Pretty big turn around for the acceptance of society.

Two problems most non-religious people have with giving religious people a break is that they're so rooted in their system of belief that any other measure of thought is intolerable and that they're not accustomed to allowing acceptance to occur. The shoe fits both ways and it happens more often than we would like to admit, just as much as how an Atheist being the prime minister of Australia confounded the hell out of people who weren't even in that country to get outraged about it.

If you read anything here, take this away: "I believe you can be a person of strong principle and values from a variety of perspectives."

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:57 pm

From what I gather from your post, you seem to describe religion as a social tool. A tool that functions as a sort of elaborate but effective rudimentary form of government that establishes civic duty within its followers. What I am trying to get at is that religion is unnecessary for our modern world--a God is dead approach if you will. There are some qualities of religion that has benefited humans as a whole, but there are some specific teachings and morals that we would deem as harmful. Whether the positive or negative aspects of a particular religion outweigh one another is up to the individual, but I would argue that it is unnecessary for our moral sense and it often times isn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:24 am

Religion is either always or never necessary, with how it is with ultimate presence. The trick is who you ask and what social strata you attempt to liberate from the crutch. It's like giving North Korea free access to plutonium. I choose that it's always necessary because I subscribe to a rather cumbersome strategy that a belief in nothing is a belief in itself, and that the belief in nothing requires something to have existed to perish. If it was true that nothing was there, then nothing was there and this argument is dust. The converse seems to keep cropping up, despite any evidence to the contrary, but one constant remains: the question of morality and its presence in religion and philosophy.

Moral sense is something you can learn from practical application, so I can concede that religion doesn't need to exist to teach that much. Stick your finger in a light socket a few times and be Mensa candidate of the century, yes? I'm sure once you learn that "fire bad for hand but good for food," you'll start to wonder what "bad" means. The bridge from the scientific method to moral application is a convoluted one which requires an ingrained sense of right and wrong. Many things don't teach that as well as religion has, and I believe it's the easiest tool that we've come across to utilize on a large scale, keeping the dogs from baying for any real answers. Is it the right choice? Probably not, but the strange thing is that it keeps on working.

I don't say this to discredit believers, but what they're doing is letting their faith believe them more than the other way around. I can still take some good away from it, as depressing as their population may be.

I hesitate to use your life as an example because I don't really know how you grew up, but you cite that you were formerly Christian. Will you concede that some morality, however hashed out or far in few in between it may seem to you now having thought in the Nietzsche fashion you adopt, came from religion in a way or another? Did it at least provoke you into the choices you made in recognizing what was good and bad about faith, and how you detached from it?

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PostSubject: Re: Spirituality/Religion   Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:53 pm

breakyoudown wrote:
I can remember the schools teaching us how pro-choice is evil by showing us abortion movies. One kid in my class actually fainted during it. She got light headed and passed out. This wouldn't have happened if that baby was born and raised poorly like it should have been.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/child-s-pregnancy-sets-off-abortion-debate-in-chile-1.1355296 Sigh.
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