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PostSubject: music elitism   Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:21 am

I'm going to explain why music and social elitism bother me. First of all, it's completely my issue. That much is certain. With that said, I'm going to explain why it's my issue. I hated intolerance when I was a kid, and I hated suffering as well. Ultimately I realized the only responsible thing to do in life was to try to understand all natural phenomenon, and that included people. Understanding them allowed for both enlightenment and superior tactics. Also in principle there is always a reason for everything. There is a reason people enjoy the music they enjoy, and to criticize them for that, without even knowing anything about their personality or thoughts, is to simply criticize them for liking the things they like. I don't understand how that works. I remember when I was a child I had this ability, but I've lacked it for so long that I can't wrap my mind around it really. So you can see how it's completely my problem.

The other thing that bothers me about it is the group mentality aspect. People form their identity as they grow up, and a lot of this identity has to do with identifying themselves as belonging to a certain group. Then many will adopt the group mentality of that group. That often involves prejudices. For example, people outside the mainstream tend to hate or look down on the mainstream. People who listen to manly music tend to look down on feminine music for being "gay," and people who listen to feminine music tend to see the ones who listen to masculine music as stupid and ugly, etc.. And then of course everyone seeks to justify their prejudices. They'll criticize music they don't like as being unsophisticated, even though they enjoy their own unsophisticated music from time to time. They'll criticize it for being associated with negative culture, even though not all the people who enjoy that music are necessarily involved in such charges...and once again the accuser probably likes some things that are associated with negative culture themselves, but then "at least the music is good." They'll criticize other music as simply being ridiculous or distasteful, but then that overlooks the fact that people actually enjoy this "ridiculous" music, and many see the music the accuser enjoys as ridiculous too. These group mentalities are childish and pointless.

And here is the real thing...listening to music one enjoys is a positive thing. Guess what music crowd has some negative cultural associations? The heavy metal crowd does. Imagine how the upstanding classical music elitist views the merits of heavy metal. It almost certainly looks like a bunch of shit to them, even if it might be talented sometimes it's still in bad taste. There have been statistics showing that heavy metal fans have more issues than the standard population. So we could say heavy metal is a lower form of art for this reason, and that those who listen to it apparently enjoy this lower form of art. However I'm using heavy metal here as an example for a point I'm going to make. Even though listening to heavy metal, in some instances, has been shown to be associated with negative realities...scientists still don't say heavy metal is the /cause/ of these things. There is simply a correlation. It could be the person buying into the culture instead of simply enjoying the music that leads to reckless actions. Or it could simply be that a population which is more troubled on average is driven toward such music. The music itself helps the person cope with day to day life.

The point is, people listen to the music they like because it simply makes sense to do so. Whatever their life circumstances were, and however their brain is wired, for everyone everywhere it is almost always better to listen to the music one enjoys rather than worrying about immature elitism, which is just one group mentality that exists in almost every group...whether it's a social group, a religious group, or whatever kind of group.

I happened to like some bands like Slipknot when I was a kid, but I never bought into the group mentalities...I just liked the music because it was the right music to be listening to at the time. I did grow rather self-conscious over the elitists though, which I encountered later on...they were so confident and upright. They remind me of conservatives bashing on things. Ultimately I've come to a great appreciation of a wide range of music which continues to grow, and for that I'm fortunate and thankful. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the things one enjoys. And I understand the bashing is a lot of fun, but I do find it annoying when people take it too seriously. I guess I've come to appreciate Taxer for that reason...he knows how to bash for the sake of bashing. Also all these things could be said of any art...not just music.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:47 am

I am a music elitist in two ways: the subjective and the objective. In the subjective, it is nothing more than X artists does not create a sensation of pleasure when I listen to them. Sometimes, artist X might even create a sensation of displeasure. I tend to be vocal about that which does causes displeasure and speak of it negatively by saying it sucks. It is nothing more than that. I know some people, even friends, might like that which causes me displeasure, but fact of the matter is that I find it to be "bad" or even "wrong."

The objective tends to apply to the generic. Think about music as a meal. The generic would be a ham sandwich; nothing wrong with it in the slightest. However, view the "unique" or "the good" as premium steak. Both are food and not many would object to one or the other. However, clearly the steak is the most fulfilling meal. The only reason I can comprehend for eating the sandwich over the steak is to appreciate the steak even more next time you have it.

Oh and then there is just saying something sucks for the sake of saying something sucks.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:54 am

There are always exceptions, but yes generally speaking different music has different impacts on us. Slow classical music will slow down the heart rate, while high bpm techno is going to speed it up. Still the aesthetic tastes and everything are purely subjective. Even production and sound quality, while certainly some things have a fuller sound, ultimately what we prefer is subjective as well. Raw production vs. full production, or CD vs. vinyl. Different people have different preferences.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:42 pm

Reminds me of how there is always a mention of how Justin Bieber sucks on any classic rock/metal video you see. I have a problem with modern mainstream music. Because record companies sell sex and attractive people rather than musicians with actual talent who work very hard to achieve any degree of success. Not to say that sex has never been sold before, but usually the people selling it were never fuckable and had to write big hits in order to gain more popularity.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:57 pm

ThatNaggerGuy wrote:
Reminds me of how there is always a mention of how Justin Bieber sucks on any classic rock/metal video you see. I have a problem with modern mainstream music. Because record companies sell sex and attractive people rather than musicians with actual talent who work very hard to achieve any degree of success. Not to say that sex has never been sold before, but usually the people selling it were never fuckable and had to write big hits in order to gain more popularity.

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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:06 am

In that sense, they've crafted their own elitism for the charming and good looking because if sex sells, then sex + music is a bigger sell. It's the Disney phenomena: you get some sap kid to act as your in-the-now product and when they're too old to be relevant, you pawn them off to the world of entertainment so they may stake their claim. Sure, we've seen what happens to these types later on down the road (need I remind you of the Osmonds, Jackson Five) and we know their lives aren't made easy by being sold into this without much in the way of saying they wanted it.

I doubt Justin Bieber really gave a fuck in the beginning, but now he's an iconic target of hatred (and rightfully so, to a degree) for many people that would bother to label themselves "real" music listeners. While I don't stand for pop music in any way of the word because the overwhelming majority is nothing but typecast sex or money, I can easily bring myself to the conclusion that if Bieber's mom wasn't such a cock, he would still be some kid in Canada doing amateur YouTube videos like the rest of us. Not angry at him for his success more than the industry that made him what he is: a blank placeholder for the next phenomenon. Justin Bieber used to be the Jonas Brothers used to be N'Sync et cetera...

The industry tears itself apart from within by trying to maintain its legacy by buying their way into the compliant lives of these pop musicians. By doing so, they ensure that another VMA event occurs but it's the same tripe that happened the year before with the racy clothes and the tantrums of some egotistical people. Nobody really gives a fuck as long as the show goes on.

This is where the division between what we call elitism (true black metal, genre debasing and the rest of the shit we're familiar with) and what they call elitism. There's more than one way to go about borderline obsessively branding each and every intricacy and exploiting it for whatever end you seek.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:09 pm

To me, music has turned into two completely separate forms of entertainment. I thoroughly despise popular music, be it mainstream rock, hip-hop or this shit that can just be defined as pop music. But it's not what I'm looking for it music, so that's why. I won't judge someone because that's what they like, but there is nothing in it for me.

The separation starts where the depth in music ends. To me, most of this mainstream pop is just to sound appealing at face value, with no lasting depth. There is no room for contemplation, and no nuances to discover in the music. No one can say that they listen to Justin Bieber's music because they discover more about it each time. They listen to it because to them it sounds good at face value.

Now I'm not trying to say I'm better than anyone else who likes stuff like that, but the reason I listen to music is because I find it a very interesting and ever-changing art form. I love music that I can listen to numerous times and each time I find something new and exciting in it. Or if it makes me think. To me that's what good art is. I'm not saying i'm better because of it (just trying to clear that up) it's just a difference in intention when it comes to music. Also, i'm not saying I don't like the occasional catchy tune to just make me feel better, because there are obviously a lot of bands I listen to that just sound good, but don't have the depth to be something I would listen to often.

The thing I hate most about pop music is how it is all derived from the status quo of popular music at the time. There are no risks, and that's how you end up with a handful of musicians who all sound the same. They are trying to cash in on the popular sound. That's not to say that there aren't some pop artists that are taking risks, but it ends up being much more rare than the "underground" forms of music, where the bulk of the audience listens to it BECAUSE they are taking risks rather than maintaining the status quo.

I think music elitism has it's place, but it's not to be a dick about it. But there has to be a separation between types of music listeners. For one to call him/herself a true music listener they must do more than simply HEAR the music, which is the only thing pop music offers.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:33 pm

^ This.

There's a fine line of music elitism for me. When i was a bit younger i was into all the nu metal hype. Before that it was just alternative rock & rap music so nu metal fit in just fine. I even liked Slipknot, at the time of their debut album i thought they were the heaviest, craziest band around. But slowly due to metal elitism i found heavier, more aggressive stuff then Slipknot.

It's about access though, you got a huge group of people who are into trendy stuff that personally i find some people mindlessly listen to thinking it's what you have to listen to. The biggest rock in the path is Pop, Rock & Rap. Almost every person you turn to listens to what everyone else listens to. Even when listening to Limp Bizkit i didn't consider it metal.. to me it was like a rap pop kind of thing yet some other people thought LB was metal. I don't even consider them nu metal.. having the metal genre for that particular artist makes me cringe.

Popular music really has no effect on me other then occasionally i will find it listenable/enjoyable. Many of the popular artists will only have maybe 1 or 2 songs i will enjoy out of their album (or entire discography). With that said i won't go out of my way to listen to that artists entire catalog. I really don't care what people listen to for the most part.. one thing that does bother me is when someone says that 'Slipknot' or 'Korn' are heavy (or aggressive).. sure they are on the surface, but death/black metal bands have already successfully achieved this. Slipknot & Korn just commercialized it so it's completely listenable for others who require that extra meaningless 'flare' in popular music but removes the depth & the talent in the process. I have even stopped listening to most popular artists because of it's lack of effort or ingenuity.

Then there is musical taste difference. Even though i don't consider pop music 'deep' some people may consider it that way. They may also think that metal is just noise or it sounds ok on the surface but they don't really get anything out of it. However i listen to metal mostly because i find it more entertaining, deep & overall better produced, especially for the underground/obscure stuff. To me it makes me feel unique. I want to avoid the crowd, as many are posers.. but at the same time i really enjoy what i listen to. I even enjoy searching out new bands that are trying to develop a new sound rather then the rehashed material, although there are several bands that i like that do have a similar sound but for the most part have a different or alternate theme to the lyrics.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:34 pm

What music you listen to doesn't put you in a "crowd." Even if you say you're a fan of something and you get along with the band's crowd, it doesn't mean your identity and thoughts are suddenly akin to the average of that group. All it means is you like the music. As far as Slipknot goes, they made a different kind of music. They contributed something to the world of music by doing something new, whether or not everyone enjoys it. It doesn't matter if it's easy to compose, or easy to play, or if the music itself is accessible. Music is made by people and for people, and matters of composition and technicality are usually just a means. Slipknot made effective music without needing it to be complicated or inaccessible.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:49 pm

I agree, i never followed any band's crowd or ideals, i just found the music interesting & music to me is a form of art. It's not how well you play something or how it sounds but it's what it means to you that counts. I'm not a big fan of country music. It doesn't mean i hate it or think the listeners are strange or have a bad taste in music, that's perception. Of course i like to have friends who have the same or similar taste in music that i have but it doesn't always work out that way.

People who listen to Slipknot are not all whiners or complainers & while it seems that the lyrics are whiny to me they're telling me something's wrong with the world. Rather than listening to something so happy & positive some people prefer the negative side of music. You want to show others how you feel & what you feel & much of it goes with music. Some people might be like, well that guy is a complainer because he listens to Slipknot. No, perhaps he doesn't complain but deep inside he feels that the world needs a change for the better which is one of the main themes of metal.

I like death metal, melodeath & black metal.. if i listen to black metal does that make me appear satanic? Possibly some people may think that way with the music i listen to. "Oh that guy likes black metal he must be satanic"

Most of the music i listen to is an extension of what im thinking or feeling. If im angry, ill listen to pissed off music. If things are not going my way & im having a bad day ill listen to black metal or death metal, if im happy or sad im playing melodeath. Sometimes ill play a mixture of styles just to be spontaneous or if i have a random thought going on in my mind. Other times it's completely random. BUt you get the overall theme here & i think some people listen to music for other reasons, to make them look good or cool, some listen to easy going music even when they're stressed.. perhaps it makes them feel better.

So why would i listen to negative music? I don't like the negativity in life.. but i think perhaps if i listen to negative music ill find something or a way out of the problem im dealing with. For me, ignoring the problem won't make it go away.. it just comes back & sometimes it's worse then it was before. One of the issues im dealing with is being able to have enough energy/focus towards keeping my apartment cleaned up. I'm still coping with work & other things & most of the time it's easier to just come home & do nothing but relax. Why subject myself to more work? Well im kinda off topic here.. so ill leave it with that. lol.

Bottom line i think it's best to listen to the music you enjoy & don't worry about what others listen to. Perhaps show them a band or 2 to see if they like it & let them know what you think of the bands they listen to but i think going as far as 'your music is terrible, none of them can play right, it's just noise" is a bit too far.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:06 pm

music elitism when its serious is stupid. i just listen to music, and i dont care what anyone thinks of it and i usually dont care about what other people listen to (cept design the skyline and brokencyde, but even thats just harmless youtube trolling cuz i like youtube trolling). yeah. and i also dont buy into group mentalities

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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:14 pm

Haha, trolling is awesome.. i'll do that on the last.fm music pages.. even to bands i like cuz it's just harmless fun Smile
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:48 am

It's funny how the music you listen to puts you into a crowd, whether it really goes or if its just fiction we come up with. But I do think there is a bit of separation that I find ridiculous. Just because someone likes metal, pop music or really any other kind of music doesnt change that person. But I do think there is a correlation between favorite music and type of person. Obviously we all have things in common other than our favorite music. Perhaps what type of person you are influences what is appealing to you. I know I'm a very introverted and thoughtful person, and the reason I like all the music I do is because I find the majority of it compelling on more than just a sonic level.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:17 pm

Axe wrote:
It's funny how the music you listen to puts you into a crowd, whether it really goes or if its just fiction we come up with. But I do think there is a bit of separation that I find ridiculous. Just because someone likes metal, pop music or really any other kind of music doesnt change that person. But I do think there is a correlation between favorite music and type of person. Obviously we all have things in common other than our favorite music. Perhaps what type of person you are influences what is appealing to you. I know I'm a very introverted and thoughtful person, and the reason I like all the music I do is because I find the majority of it compelling on more than just a sonic level.

the usual reason people who claim pop music are their favorite music is that they dont like music. if they did, they would go and find other music they find appealing. pop music is music for people that dont give a shit really. at least thats what ive experienced. this isnt elitism either. i dont care if people like it, im just saying the people that ONLY like pop music dont know whats out there. if they did they might actually start "liking" music as well. so im also "blaming" pop music for keeping casual people in the dark musically. but not really. but people should know whats out there.

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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:25 pm

^ i agree with this.

It's mostly with the generic artists who write the same thing, ex: Justin Bieber, Ke$ha, Britney Spears, ect... (you know where im going with this).

And im not saying they're even bad people, but they continue to hold a huge cloud over people heads, which comes to my next issue which is people who complain about bands who sell out. For instance, granted that In Flames was their best in their melodeath years, they continue to evolve rather then just 'selling out'. I'm sure if that was their only objective in the career they would probably be doing the same music as Justin Bieber or [insert pop artist here] i would imagine IF wouldn't have any fans left other then the teenyboppers. To me anyways IF is trying to reach out to the mainstream in hopes of becoming as popular as Metallica or [insert generic artist here] so they're leaving a foot in the door to those who are willing to look a little deeper into the genre, making melodeath more popular. Even though 'Deliver Us' sounds like a Nickelback style [or insert random pop artist] song... whatever the reasoning behind it regardless i still see it opens new doors that even only a couple of people may walk into & possibly more. It also opens a door to the posers which bands like Children Of Bodom & Slipknot already have.

But i agree with the statement (that deserves quoting)..
LOR wrote:
i dont care if people like it, im just saying the people that ONLY like pop music dont know whats out there. if they did they might actually start "liking" music as well. so im also "blaming" pop music for keeping casual people in the dark musically. but not really. but people should know whats out there.

Really it's in our human nature to explore what's out there & it's pretty sad people are more concerned about their image instead of the knowledge of the world & one of the best tools of art, music... which ends up going to waste & we end up with artists like Soulja Boy who's lyrics are "fuck the troops" It's sad really.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Sun May 20, 2012 8:42 pm

soo much truth has been spoken O.O affraid
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Sun May 20, 2012 11:40 pm

people actually agreed with me on this thread... brings a tear to the eye

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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon May 21, 2012 12:51 am

Its because your L337
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon May 21, 2012 1:42 am

is that a good thing on this thread haha.... maybe...maybe...

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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon May 21, 2012 1:59 am

l337=leet =elite=supreme.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon May 21, 2012 12:05 pm

exactly, elite on a thread about elitism haha

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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon May 21, 2012 1:40 pm

living example
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon May 21, 2012 3:20 pm

fight

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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Mon May 21, 2012 8:52 pm

breakyoudown wrote:
ThatNaggerGuy wrote:
Reminds me of how there is always a mention of how Justin Bieber sucks on any classic rock/metal video you see. I have a problem with modern mainstream music. Because record companies sell sex and attractive people rather than musicians with actual talent who work very hard to achieve any degree of success. Not to say that sex has never been sold before, but usually the people selling it were never fuckable and had to write big hits in order to gain more popularity.

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I believe Tom Petty wrote an entire album about this sort of thing. And this was in 2002.
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PostSubject: Re: music elitism   Wed May 23, 2012 12:52 am

:O Op!
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music elitism
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