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 Omnivores, Defend Yourself

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VintageTorrie
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:59 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
There is an underlining idea behind veganism, and that is not to use anything that caused life or labor, or deprived an animal of its natural happiness. And how is your justification not an oxymoron? To say that you do care about how the animals are treated before and during slaughter, but not care about the animal itself. How can you have fleeting compassion?

But can you tell me, with absolute certainty, that the pleasure of food is more important than the pleasures derived from love, compassion, friendship, liberty, justice, etc.?

Caring about how an animal is treated IS caring about the animal......
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:00 pm

VintageTorrie wrote:
The animals have only been exposed to fields and such, while we have been exposed to much more wonderful things. We can appreciate these things more then animals can.

And, I know this sounds cruel, but I don't really give a shit, animals aren't as intelligent as us humans, especially ones that we breed specifically for meat. The simply don't have the mental ability that we humans do.

Besides, they are killed in a quick, painless way, they most likely don't even realise what's happening.
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/dvorsky201208251
This article should hopefully pique your interest.

So you mean to say, that with "greater intelligence" comes privilege to make whatever you want expendable? If I could prove my intellect higher than another human, certainly that would give me grounds to murder them, after they couldn't appreciate life on the same level as I.

And on what grounds do you say that they die quick and painless? Have you ever seen how a slaughterhouse operates? The type of macabre activity AND behavior goes on within them?
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:01 pm

VintageTorrie wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
It certainly isn't an ethereal pleasure, but small moments of happiness are better than none at all
So you mean to say that such a pleasure is one that you will look fondly upon in the future? And small moments are better than none, but are you truly at a deficit of pleasure? Are the pleasures in your life scarce and infrequent?

No, not for me, but think about poorer families. Are they meant to starve to death, just to save a few animals that don't really contribute to society?
Starve to death! As if flesh was the only means of appropriating and existence!
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:03 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/dvorsky201208251
This article should hopefully pique your interest.

So you mean to say, that with "greater intelligence" comes privilege to make whatever you want expendable? If I could prove my intellect higher than another human, certainly that would give me grounds to murder them, after they couldn't appreciate life on the same level as I.

And on what grounds do you say that they die quick and painless? Have you ever seen how a slaughterhouse operates? The type of macabre activity AND behavior goes on within them?

I never said that ALL animals are killed quickly, besides, how do you know if they aren't, have you been into every slaughterhouse there is?

And no, intelligence does not = deciding who dies, but think about it. Humans have maid electricity, technology, and fantastic music. Have animals done that?
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:04 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
Starve to death! As if flesh was the only means of appropriating and existence!

No, it is not, but they have to take what chances they have, and the meat business can also provide a lot of income.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:04 pm

LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
In today's cruel world, everyone deserves pleasure of some sort, even if it is small
Everyone? Why not Everything?
sure everything can and maybe should obtain happiness but shit happens. the weak die.

Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
Does it matter?
Yes. If this doesn't matter, then what else doesn't matter? Shall we all give in to absolute nihilism?

this is where im starting to think your taking this a bit too dar
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
Some people may enjoy meat more than others, you can't really say it's a petty pleasure.
But would you deny that it a ethereal pleasure? I can have it for a moment, and then it will slip away, does such a pleasure stay within me for a lifetime? Can I conjure up nostalgic feelings of meat the way I can of love? If I can, would they ever bear the same weight?
i think your argument is getting retarded. just because something is not as awesome as an "ethereal" "spiritual" pleasure does not mean its not worth indulging in. with your argument we should just find the most spiritual awesome thing in the universe and only do that because why do anything else if its not as awesome as that thing? "this isn't as great as this thing, so why even do it at all?" is a dumb argument... but im also starting to suspect this is a giant well-orchestrated troll...
Never said spiritual, and by ethereal I mean that such pleasures are like mist and slip away from us.

And well orchestrated troll? Because I goad you out of your comfort zone?
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:04 pm

vintagetorrie...stop using words...your arguing yourself into a corner haha.

im just gonna go eat some salami. brb

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:05 pm

xD
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:06 pm

This is exactly what I was saying earlier. Look at what has happened in a short space of time.

I like meat, you don't, accept it.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:06 pm

VintageTorrie wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
There is an underlining idea behind veganism, and that is not to use anything that caused life or labor, or deprived an animal of its natural happiness. And how is your justification not an oxymoron? To say that you do care about how the animals are treated before and during slaughter, but not care about the animal itself. How can you have fleeting compassion?

But can you tell me, with absolute certainty, that the pleasure of food is more important than the pleasures derived from love, compassion, friendship, liberty, justice, etc.?

Caring about how an animal is treated IS caring about the animal......
What I deduced is that he hardly cares. It's more like he is vaguely aware and so has an uneasy feeling about it, which makes him apathetically care.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:08 pm

VintageTorrie wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Starve to death! As if flesh was the only means of appropriating and existence!

No, it is not, but they have to take what chances they have, and the meat business can also provide a lot of income.
A lot of income? You do realize that the meat business employs a lot of immigrants who are treated like shit, and don't make nearly as much money as they so deserve?
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:09 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Starve to death! As if flesh was the only means of appropriating and existence!

No, it is not, but they have to take what chances they have, and the meat business can also provide a lot of income.
A lot of income? You do realize that the meat business employs a lot of immigrants who are treated like shit, and don't make nearly as much money as they so deserve?

I'm talking about income for poorer families and small businesses, not full-scale industry
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:10 pm

VintageTorrie wrote:
This is exactly what I was saying earlier. Look at what has happened in a short space of time.

I like meat, you don't, accept it.
On the contrary, I accept that. What I don't accept is the argument you have for it, it is very weakly constructed, it basically consists of repeating, "yeah man, some people eat meat, and shit sucks in the world, deal with it."
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:11 pm

VintageTorrie wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Starve to death! As if flesh was the only means of appropriating and existence!

No, it is not, but they have to take what chances they have, and the meat business can also provide a lot of income.
A lot of income? You do realize that the meat business employs a lot of immigrants who are treated like shit, and don't make nearly as much money as they so deserve?

I'm talking about income for poorer families and small businesses, not full-scale industry
Expand on this, for it is not clear to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:12 pm

Just like your's consists of guilting me into believing what you believe.

I'm not going to change your viewpoint, you're entitled to it, just like I am with mine.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:13 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
Expand on this, for it is not clear to me.

Well, since meat is popular, it wouldn't be extremely difficult to make at least a little bit of money from it, thus helping the poorer families, especially in rural areas
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:15 pm

VintageTorrie wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/dvorsky201208251
This article should hopefully pique your interest.

So you mean to say, that with "greater intelligence" comes privilege to make whatever you want expendable? If I could prove my intellect higher than another human, certainly that would give me grounds to murder them, after they couldn't appreciate life on the same level as I.

And on what grounds do you say that they die quick and painless? Have you ever seen how a slaughterhouse operates? The type of macabre activity AND behavior goes on within them?

I never said that ALL animals are killed quickly, besides, how do you know if they aren't, have you been into every slaughterhouse there is?

And no, intelligence does not = deciding who dies, but think about it. Humans have maid electricity, technology, and fantastic music. Have animals done that?
Humans have discovered these things, if we did not exist electricity would certainly still exist, and the sciences that go into making technology.

And no, I have not been to a slaughterhouse, but I certainly have seen how they operate.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:16 pm

I feel like Bloodbeast just took his first intro to phil course.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:19 pm

VintageTorrie wrote:
Just like your's consists of guilting me into believing what you believe.

I'm not going to change your viewpoint, you're entitled to it, just like I am with mine.
Aw shoot, I forgot that all the sources and examples I have been giving are just total bull.

And I'm not trying to guilt, I'm not trying to get you to turn to plantbased diet, like I've said, I don't give a fuck if you eat meat. I am however, trying to draw you to the condition of everything, the cause and the effect, the impacts, and to do so with as much clarity as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Taxer666 wrote:
I feel like Bloodbeast just took his first intro to phil course.
Had this viewpoint for two years now.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:22 pm

VintageTorrie wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Expand on this, for it is not clear to me.

Well, since meat is popular, it wouldn't be extremely difficult to make at least a little bit of money from it, thus helping the poorer families, especially in rural areas
This still makes no sense, what link to the industry do poorer families have to it? Are they the factory workers? Ranchers? Butchers?
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:25 pm

I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:29 pm

Taxer666 wrote:
I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
You cannot seperate your emotions from reality, from life, our emotions are intertwined with everything, ergo, we cannot remove meaning.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:31 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
In today's cruel world, everyone deserves pleasure of some sort, even if it is small
Everyone? Why not Everything?
sure everything can and maybe should obtain happiness but shit happens. the weak die.

Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
Does it matter?
Yes. If this doesn't matter, then what else doesn't matter? Shall we all give in to absolute nihilism?

this is where im starting to think your taking this a bit too dar
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
Some people may enjoy meat more than others, you can't really say it's a petty pleasure.
But would you deny that it a ethereal pleasure? I can have it for a moment, and then it will slip away, does such a pleasure stay within me for a lifetime? Can I conjure up nostalgic feelings of meat the way I can of love? If I can, would they ever bear the same weight?
i think your argument is getting retarded. just because something is not as awesome as an "ethereal" "spiritual" pleasure does not mean its not worth indulging in. with your argument we should just find the most spiritual awesome thing in the universe and only do that because why do anything else if its not as awesome as that thing? "this isn't as great as this thing, so why even do it at all?" is a dumb argument... but im also starting to suspect this is a giant well-orchestrated troll...
Never said spiritual, and by ethereal I mean that such pleasures are like mist and slip away from us.

And well orchestrated troll? Because I goad you out of your comfort zone?

no just because your name is bloodbeast. it strikes me as opposites. are you even a vegetarian? but seriously though, your posts were becoming increasingly pompous like "i know vegetariansim is the absolute truth in this world, i have this argument in the bag" which at first made me think you were trolling...but if your not...your just being an ass with some of these posts. you didn't even really respond to what i wrote. just because there are pleasures greater than eating out there doesnt make eating meat a thing not to be enjoyed. what your saying wasnt even an argument really.

bottom line- do you feel bad about eating meat or not?
no?- then eat meat
yes?- dont eat meat

do you aknowledge that there are greater things out there than eating meat?
no?- then eat meat
yes?- well then depending on whether you like to eat meat to begin with, eat whatever you fucking like. this question has nothing to do with anything really.


edit: after reading previous comments...this kinda does sound like a philosophy teacher trying to knock down everyone's arguments

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:36 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
You cannot seperate your emotions from reality, from life, our emotions are intertwined with everything, ergo, we cannot remove meaning.

so basically if you dont feel bad... then fuck it. but also according to this, things do not innately have meaning. and if you are in sole control of whether you feel bad about something or not, then eating meat being bad is completely up to you. therefore this conversation became pointless? well...that's anti-climactic.

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:41 pm

sidenot, pretty impressive 74 replies in like a day for this thread. good shit bloodbeast. we need more conversations like this for this forum

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:44 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
You cannot seperate your emotions from reality, from life, our emotions are intertwined with everything, ergo, we cannot remove meaning.

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not something has meaning. I am talking about absolute inherent meaning. There is no meaning, however we give things meaning. Just because I have biases does not mean that I am unable to see those biases. Things are important to me yes, but I know that at an absolute level. it is just me going through life.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:44 pm

LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
In today's cruel world, everyone deserves pleasure of some sort, even if it is small
Everyone? Why not Everything?
sure everything can and maybe should obtain happiness but shit happens. the weak die.

Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
Does it matter?
Yes. If this doesn't matter, then what else doesn't matter? Shall we all give in to absolute nihilism?

this is where im starting to think your taking this a bit too dar
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
Some people may enjoy meat more than others, you can't really say it's a petty pleasure.
But would you deny that it a ethereal pleasure? I can have it for a moment, and then it will slip away, does such a pleasure stay within me for a lifetime? Can I conjure up nostalgic feelings of meat the way I can of love? If I can, would they ever bear the same weight?
i think your argument is getting retarded. just because something is not as awesome as an "ethereal" "spiritual" pleasure does not mean its not worth indulging in. with your argument we should just find the most spiritual awesome thing in the universe and only do that because why do anything else if its not as awesome as that thing? "this isn't as great as this thing, so why even do it at all?" is a dumb argument... but im also starting to suspect this is a giant well-orchestrated troll...
Never said spiritual, and by ethereal I mean that such pleasures are like mist and slip away from us.

And well orchestrated troll? Because I goad you out of your comfort zone?

no just because your name is bloodbeast. it strikes me as opposites. are you even a vegetarian? but seriously though, your posts were becoming increasingly pompous like "i know vegetariansim is the absolute truth in this world, i have this argument in the bag" which at first made me think you were trolling...but if your not...your just being an ass with some of these posts. you didn't even really respond to what i wrote. just because there are pleasures greater than eating out there doesnt make eating meat a thing not to be enjoyed. what your saying wasnt even an argument really.

bottom line- do you feel bad about eating meat or not?
no?- then eat meat
yes?- dont eat meat

do you aknowledge that there are greater things out there than eating meat?
no?- then eat meat
yes?- well then depending on whether you like to eat meat to begin with, eat whatever you fucking like. this question has nothing to do with anything really.


edit: after reading previous comments...this kinda does sound like a philosophy teacher trying to knock down everyone's arguments
Aaaaaaand once again you miss my points.

Firstly, I said it once, I've said it again, I'll say it once more. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK IF YOU EAT MEAT. My arguments are aimed at the industry, and all the ill effects it has on the world. Once again, don't give a fuck about if you eat meat.

Second, I never said that eating meat is a pleasure that you should not enjoy, merely that it is a petty pleasure when compared to other things.

Bottom line - do you feel bad about eating meat or not?
No? Then why don't you feel bad, and justify it with solid reasons.
Yes? Then why don't you ANYTHING about it.

Do you acknowledge that there are greater things out there than eating meat?
No? What other pleasures do you have, and what can compare with eating meat?
Yes? Same thing as you said.

And about the philosophy thing, as if this is my first thread in which I had a serious, passionate argument.

Bloodbeast means my argument is negated? Does that mean Taxer is somehow incapable of tax evasion?
And yes, I am a vegetarian, but the very first post said to rationally defend yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:45 pm

LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
You cannot seperate your emotions from reality, from life, our emotions are intertwined with everything, ergo, we cannot remove meaning.

so basically if you dont feel bad... then fuck it. but also according to this, things do not innately have meaning. and if you are in sole control of whether you feel bad about something or not, then eating meat being bad is completely up to you. therefore this conversation became pointless? well...that's anti-climactic.

You aren't really in control of what you feel. You either do feel something or you don't. Shit just is.




you can convince yourself into feeling things though. take this conversation for instance. i could probably make myself feel nothing at all towards animals by convincing myself that they dont matter some how, or i could convert myself to veganism if i wanted to, i would just have to redefine in myself what i think is good and bad. humans are masters at deceiving themselves. i feel thats a reason religion exists. there is no objective right in this conversation. its up to how the individual thinks and up to that persons perception of good and bad. this conversation exists because we have a difference in how we think about the issue. if i was honest though, i would have to admit that thinking about the subject more has made me feel more about the subject. i dont think everything bloodbeast said was... good or even tactful, but its a subject i think about a lot regardless. I might not change entirely but i have been trying to eat better recently anyway(which in my case does include less meat because i eat much of it). who knows though, i might wake up tomorrow and say fuck it still. its an interesting topic, regardless if you're a nihilist or not, because its an issue which helps you figure our who you are in general also.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:52 pm

Taxer666 wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
You cannot seperate your emotions from reality, from life, our emotions are intertwined with everything, ergo, we cannot remove meaning.

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not something has meaning. I am talking about absolute inherent meaning. There is no meaning, however we give things meaning. Just because I have biases does not mean that I am unable to see those biases. Things are important to me yes, but I know that at an absolute level. it is just me going through life.
Do you mean to say there is no inherent meaning, but there are external meanings?
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:57 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
You cannot seperate your emotions from reality, from life, our emotions are intertwined with everything, ergo, we cannot remove meaning.

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not something has meaning. I am talking about absolute inherent meaning. There is no meaning, however we give things meaning. Just because I have biases does not mean that I am unable to see those biases. Things are important to me yes, but I know that at an absolute level. it is just me going through life.
Do you mean to say there is no inherent meaning, but there are external meanings?

nihilists believe their is no inherent meanings. that's what a nihilist is.

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:58 pm

i should have probably said objective instead of inherent

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:59 pm

LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
You cannot seperate your emotions from reality, from life, our emotions are intertwined with everything, ergo, we cannot remove meaning.

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not something has meaning. I am talking about absolute inherent meaning. There is no meaning, however we give things meaning. Just because I have biases does not mean that I am unable to see those biases. Things are important to me yes, but I know that at an absolute level. it is just me going through life.
Do you mean to say there is no inherent meaning, but there are external meanings?

nihilists believe their is no inherent meanings. that's what a nihilist is.
Right, but external was what I was asking.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:03 pm

you'd have to ask taxer since thats who its directed at. im not a nihilist

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:24 pm

Taxer666 wrote:
LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
You cannot seperate your emotions from reality, from life, our emotions are intertwined with everything, ergo, we cannot remove meaning.

so basically if you dont feel bad... then fuck it. but also according to this, things do not innately have meaning. and if you are in sole control of whether you feel bad about something or not, then eating meat being bad is completely up to you. therefore this conversation became pointless? well...that's anti-climactic.

You aren't really in control of what you feel. You either do feel something or you don't. Shit just is.




you can convince yourself into feeling things though. take this conversation for instance. i could probably make myself feel nothing at all towards animals by convincing myself that they dont matter some how, or i could convert myself to veganism if i wanted to, i would just have to redefine in myself what i think is good and bad. humans are masters at deceiving themselves. i feel thats a reason religion exists. there is no objective right in this conversation. its up to how the individual thinks and up to that persons perception of good and bad. this conversation exists because we have a difference in how we think about the issue. if i was honest though, i would have to admit that thinking about the subject more has made me feel more about the subject. i dont think everything bloodbeast said was... good or even tactful, but its a subject i think about a lot regardless. I might not change entirely but i have been trying to eat better recently anyway(which in my case does include less meat because i eat much of it). who knows though, i might wake up tomorrow and say fuck it still. its an interesting topic, regardless if you're a nihilist or not, because its an issue which helps you figure our who you are in general also.

I... didn't write this last part.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:31 pm

I believe that there are no inherent meanings, that is that at the core of it, things do not matter in the grand scale. Now don't get knit picky because I do believe in things such as definition, so A=A by definition.

However, we as as species function by rationalizing and that includes giving things meanings. Aside from self-preservation instinct, what purpose do we have for continuing to live? Inherently? No meaning whatsoever. However, you can super-impose the idea of doing good, serving god, eating steak as your reason for continuing to live, and that is fine and dandy. If we were to remove all form of life in the universe, what would pain and suffering and pleasure and happiness have? Nothing really.

It seems like a hollow and depressing view-point, but I feel like it is the correct one and once you adopt it, things seem more clear and easier to cope with.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:47 pm

Taxer666 wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
I feel too lazy to read the rest. But I'll respond to your previous comment. Should we delve into absolute nihilism? Yes. Nothing inherently matters. Things just are. We just have emotions and that tends to give things meaning, but once you're removed from the picture, things are completely neutral.
You cannot seperate your emotions from reality, from life, our emotions are intertwined with everything, ergo, we cannot remove meaning.

so basically if you dont feel bad... then fuck it. but also according to this, things do not innately have meaning. and if you are in sole control of whether you feel bad about something or not, then eating meat being bad is completely up to you. therefore this conversation became pointless? well...that's anti-climactic.

You aren't really in control of what you feel. You either do feel something or you don't. Shit just is.




you can convince yourself into feeling things though. take this conversation for instance. i could probably make myself feel nothing at all towards animals by convincing myself that they dont matter some how, or i could convert myself to veganism if i wanted to, i would just have to redefine in myself what i think is good and bad. humans are masters at deceiving themselves. i feel thats a reason religion exists. there is no objective right in this conversation. its up to how the individual thinks and up to that persons perception of good and bad. this conversation exists because we have a difference in how we think about the issue. if i was honest though, i would have to admit that thinking about the subject more has made me feel more about the subject. i dont think everything bloodbeast said was... good or even tactful, but its a subject i think about a lot regardless. I might not change entirely but i have been trying to eat better recently anyway(which in my case does include less meat because i eat much of it). who knows though, i might wake up tomorrow and say fuck it still. its an interesting topic, regardless if you're a nihilist or not, because its an issue which helps you figure our who you are in general also.

I... didn't write this last part.
Wait, what?
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:50 pm

I wrote the first line, I did not write the following paragraph.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:57 pm

o i think i fucked up the quote thing haha Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:02 pm

Taxer666 wrote:
I believe that there are no inherent meanings, that is that at the core of it, things do not matter in the grand scale. Now don't get knit picky because I do believe in things such as definition, so A=A by definition.

However, we as as species function by rationalizing and that includes giving things meanings. Aside from self-preservation instinct, what purpose do we have for continuing to live? Inherently? No meaning whatsoever. However, you can super-impose the idea of doing good, serving god, eating steak as your reason for continuing to live, and that is fine and dandy. If we were to remove all form of life in the universe, what would pain and suffering and pleasure and happiness have? Nothing really.

It seems like a hollow and depressing view-point, but I feel like it is the correct one and once you adopt it, things seem more clear and easier to cope with.

i understand that, and actually like it to a point, but i still can't fully align with it. I think there is much more to think about before i settle on what i think life is really about. i like talking about this stuff though. pretty neat

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:27 am

Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
Everyone? Why not Everything?

Animals that are bred specifically for meat don't know the pleasures us humans do, meaning what little they have is enough for them.
You mean to measure sentience? Intelligence? Set up a hierarchy of worth? Is that your intention?
yes
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:34 am

My last argument is that vegans always act so goddamn self-righteous. Should it be selfish to enjoy the fruits of life?

If you really wanted to lower carbon footprints, you'd commit murder-suicide. Each human shit-stain life, even a vegan one, pollute more from the world much more than not killing some shitty animal would help.

So you're a selfish shit, too. But I'm no coward and and harbor no delusions of grandeur. :twisted:

typed this high as a kite, btw.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:26 pm

Gravy Gulper wrote:
My last argument is that vegans always act so goddamn self-righteous. Should it be selfish to enjoy the fruits of life?

If you really wanted to lower carbon footprints, you'd commit murder-suicide. Each human shit-stain life, even a vegan one, pollute more from the world much more than not killing some shitty animal would help.

So you're a selfish shit, too. But I'm no coward and and harbor no delusions of grandeur. :twisted:

typed this high as a kite, btw.
Hypocrisy, thy name is -
It is not selfish to enjoy the fruits of life, it is selfish however to over indulge in these fruits, to deny others, and other things such fruits.

Certainly there must be an equilibrium with nature which we could certainly strive to achieve. I know that I leave a carbon foot print, but I strive to do what I can to lessen its impression. What I say is simply one piece of a larger equation of equilibrium.

You have an inherited delusion of grandeur, it's funny that the idea that man is the most important things in this world, was thought up by man.

And why do you resort to name calling in your argument? And I don't care if you're high.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:54 pm

This thread is making me bad that I shopped for groceries at Wal-mart the other week. Damn my flexible morals

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:49 pm

walmart is fun to visit. good people watching.


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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:38 pm

Topic Derailment

And memes are not even funny.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:04 pm

well i tend to that when the conversation takes a turn for the worse. this thread should die. it went from people willingly giving their side of the story to you attacking everyone and trying to make them look like the bad guy. my bad for trying to lighten the mood.

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:33 pm

Bloodbeast wrote:
LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
LOR wrote:
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
In today's cruel world, everyone deserves pleasure of some sort, even if it is small
Everyone? Why not Everything?
sure everything can and maybe should obtain happiness but shit happens. the weak die.

Bloodbeast wrote:
Taxer666 wrote:
Does it matter?
Yes. If this doesn't matter, then what else doesn't matter? Shall we all give in to absolute nihilism?

this is where im starting to think your taking this a bit too dar
Bloodbeast wrote:
VintageTorrie wrote:
Some people may enjoy meat more than others, you can't really say it's a petty pleasure.
But would you deny that it a ethereal pleasure? I can have it for a moment, and then it will slip away, does such a pleasure stay within me for a lifetime? Can I conjure up nostalgic feelings of meat the way I can of love? If I can, would they ever bear the same weight?
i think your argument is getting retarded. just because something is not as awesome as an "ethereal" "spiritual" pleasure does not mean its not worth indulging in. with your argument we should just find the most spiritual awesome thing in the universe and only do that because why do anything else if its not as awesome as that thing? "this isn't as great as this thing, so why even do it at all?" is a dumb argument... but im also starting to suspect this is a giant well-orchestrated troll...
Never said spiritual, and by ethereal I mean that such pleasures are like mist and slip away from us.

And well orchestrated troll? Because I goad you out of your comfort zone?

no just because your name is bloodbeast. it strikes me as opposites. are you even a vegetarian? but seriously though, your posts were becoming increasingly pompous like "i know vegetariansim is the absolute truth in this world, i have this argument in the bag" which at first made me think you were trolling...but if your not...your just being an ass with some of these posts. you didn't even really respond to what i wrote. just because there are pleasures greater than eating out there doesnt make eating meat a thing not to be enjoyed. what your saying wasnt even an argument really.

bottom line- do you feel bad about eating meat or not?
no?- then eat meat
yes?- dont eat meat

do you aknowledge that there are greater things out there than eating meat?
no?- then eat meat
yes?- well then depending on whether you like to eat meat to begin with, eat whatever you fucking like. this question has nothing to do with anything really.


edit: after reading previous comments...this kinda does sound like a philosophy teacher trying to knock down everyone's arguments
Aaaaaaand once again you miss my points.

Firstly, I said it once, I've said it again, I'll say it once more. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK IF YOU EAT MEAT. My arguments are aimed at the industry, and all the ill effects it has on the world. Once again, don't give a fuck about if you eat meat.

Second, I never said that eating meat is a pleasure that you should not enjoy, merely that it is a petty pleasure when compared to other things.

Bottom line - do you feel bad about eating meat or not?
No? Then why don't you feel bad, and justify it with solid reasons.
Yes? Then why don't you ANYTHING about it.

Do you acknowledge that there are greater things out there than eating meat?
No? What other pleasures do you have, and what can compare with eating meat?
Yes? Same thing as you said.

And about the philosophy thing, as if this is my first thread in which I had a serious, passionate argument.

Bloodbeast means my argument is negated? Does that mean Taxer is somehow incapable of tax evasion?
And yes, I am a vegetarian, but the very first post said to rationally defend yourself.

and since i missed this before. i'll answer. i dont feel bad because i dont feel bad. is there a reason to not feel anything? sure im with you on the industry, industry can fuckin suck, we've been preached to about that for years by everyone. there's not much to change that, except subsidence farming, which im actually interested in. but even then, no one is going to start having cows and chickens in their yard. slaighterhouses happen to employ people that are sick fucks. unfortunately thats what happens. killing shit with no negative consequences is a pyschopaths dream come true. i dont personally know those cows so i dont really feel bad. people i dont know die everyday as well. i dont feel bad for those people, id never feel good.

and my comment about your avatar wasn't aimed to be attacking. it literally had me thinking it could have been a troll. bloodbeast sounds like blood and meat and stuff- that's just honest confusion. its like if someone had an avatar "ilikecarrots" - i would assume that person to like carrots.
and it does sound like a philosophy teacher trying to knock down arguments to me- because that's all you've been doing as is the nature of the thread. its just what i think it sounds like. i apologize for missing this earlier and for missing your point. but i also feel like you're completely missing ours. we dont feel bad, because we dont. its neutral. i dont think you need a reason for NOT feeling something

granted, i dont agree with what everyone else is saying, and they probably dont agree with me, but this is how i feel- i dont really.

if you feel like you need to be vegetarian to change things you want to change than do that. im not trying to attack you, im just getting pissed because it sounds like your attacking us

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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:52 pm

LOR wrote:
well i tend to that when the conversation takes a turn for the worse. this thread should die. it went from people willingly giving their side of the story to you attacking everyone and trying to make them look like the bad guy. my bad for trying to lighten the mood.
The title and first post should have prepared you. You cannot defend yourself unless you are being attacked. I want you to feel how I do when people find out I don't eat meat, and constantly bombard me with their opinions, in an offensive manner. Nor is it even new people, but people who already know. You said so yourself, you have vegetarian friends, and you still hassle them about their diet, even if it's "joking", it's still annoying.

This was the ultimate point of this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Omnivores, Defend Yourself   Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:59 pm

I think its because there is a stigmata of unmanliness to show emotion and be concerned about fair trade and animals. One of my friends is so far to the right that if he sees a show on tv with even a slight insinuation of a gay character he'll freak out. Pisses me off but these things exist and you just have to brush it off and call them a name back "jokingly"

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